Not based on the precedent that the US set in Yugoslavia.
NATO bombed the crap out of Serbia in 1999 and occupied Kosovo without the agreement of Belgrade. NATO did this without a UN resolution.
NATO troops are still there after over 25 years, and the US has since recognized the independence of Kosovo over the objections of the government of Serbia.
https://www.commondreams.org/views/2019/03/24/killing-credibility-look-back-1999-nato-air-war-serbia
Ukraine never forced them to live there. If they had such issues with the Ukrainian leadership the border wasnât that far to the east. As ethnic Russians theyâd have easily been granted Russian citizenship.
Uhm⌠Serbia did some genociding. They donât get much of a say in the situation.
if you find anywhere that I have ever supported what we did in Kosovo⌠you may have a point. Didnât support what we did there, donât support what your good buddy Putin is doing in Ukraine
in 1991 when Ukraine VOTED to leave the Russian federation even in the Donbas the vote was around 60%. That was a real referendum, not Russiaâs fake â â â â â â â â â
Yepp. Itâs almost like they looked over the border and said âwow that place is a real Trainwreck right now. Iâll just chill here with my cousins the Ukrainians.â
Not really. They died fighting the Nazis, but they did not free the country, they kept Ukraine as a Soviet State.
Bill ignores the fact that Ukraine never wanted to be in the Soviet Union. A whole bunch of different governments with mass support, from the Anarchist Greens to the unique Ukrainian socialists and even their own Marxists, wanted nothing to do with the Bolsheviks. Until they lost in the Russian Civil War that raged all over the former Russian Empire. Then Bolshevik Moscow forced the Union treaty on them in 1922. Some folks, like the Finns, got lucky and kept their independence. Others, like the Ukrainians and the Armenians, got forced into the Union.
But there was no âoh sweet communist unity.â The Union was created at the barrel of a Mosin-Nagant.
You ignore the fact that Russians did not what to be in the Soviet Union.
Arguably the freest election in the history of Russia occurred in November 1917. The peasantsâ party won with 37.6% of the vote. The Bolsheviks got only 23.3%. The constituent assembly met for one day and was then disbanded by the Bolsheviks at gunpoint.
Under the terms of the Treaty of Brest Litovsk, the Bolsheviks put central and western Ukraine along with western Russia under the occupation of Germany and Austria-Hungary. The western allies voided the treaty after the armistice in November 1918.
The ideology of Tsarist government was based on Russian nationalism and the Russian Orthodox Church. The Bolsheviks attacked both, although they eventually recognized the utility of Russian as the common language.
Genocide is when someone we donât like kills civilians.
âCollateral damageâ or âelminating terroristsâ is what happens when someone we like does the same thing.
All of that history lesson is nice, but the fact remains, the Russian soldiers fighting the Nazis did not die to free Ukraine.
Most people in Ukraine welcomed the Red Army as liberators from a brutal German occupation. Everyone lost family members in the war.
The fact remains that the US has been using Ukraine is a source of conscripted cannon fodder to fight its proxy war with Russia. The long list of red lines from western NGOs shows that peace was not an option, no matter what Ukrainian voters wanted. Ukraine is not free.
and yet it is Ukraine which is resisting the US in calling for them to get it over with and surrender⌠some puppet
Yes they did ⌠because they expected the Russians to go home after the war was over like we did in German occupied Europe and Japanese occupied Asia and Oceania. If youâre going to cite history to make a point, cite the whole story.
No one expected the Soviet Union to leave Ukraine at the end of WW2. Yes, the Soviets overstayed their welcome in eastern Europe, but Russia voluntarily withdrew its troops from Germany and eastern Europe at the end of the Cold War. The withdrawal was based on assurances that NATO would not expand eastward.
In contrast, we still have troops in Germany and Japan and most of Europe. In the case of Japan, they have clearly overstayed their welcome.
In the case of Romania, Georgescu had a double-digit lead in opinion polls before the runoff election was canceled and he has since been banned from the ballot. What was his crime? He expressed concerns about the vast expansion to the NATO base near the border with Ukraine.
What is next? NATO tanks rolling into capitals in Eastern Europe like the Warsaw Pact did in 1968 and 1956?
Those Eastern European countries asked to join NATO. Itâs not like US forces parked there and told them to join like the Soviets did to them with the Warsaw Pact.
thats a lie
Many of the same eastern European countries willingly joined the Axis Powers in WW2. The last time the US declared war was on June 4, 1942, when it declared war on Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria.
Finland also was an important German ally. The US never declared war on Finland, but the UK did after Finnish and German troops attempted to cut transportation routes from Murmansk.
The techniques have been similar. Breakup countries into smaller states that are easier dominate. Install friendly governments using a mixture of subversion, bribery, economic incentives, and threats.
The main difference is that, outside of Yugoslavia, the US has generally avoided using direct military intervention to expand the alliance.
There was never anything promised to Russia about NATO expansion. In 1990 the German chancellor made hints to Gorbachev saying âit could be discussed in the future.â But nobody promised them anything. Gorbachev misunderstood it (probably intentionally) and every Russian government since then has ran with that bullcrap excuse. Nothing was promised. Only that, as part of a future relationship between Russia and NATO, those matters could be discussed. Basically we agreed to talk to them, not totally dictate things.
The only thing we formally agreed to was not to station nuclear weapons in the former east Germany, and I suppose, by extension, the other former states of the Warsaw pact. But all of that depended on both sides observing the new status quo that existed in the mid 1990s. Russia has upended that status quo on multiple occasions. The status quo was that we wouldnât interfere in internal Russian affairs beyond what they asked for our help on (we are the reason a â â â â ton of nukes didnât just disappear after the Cold War; the Russians couldnât pay their own guards and missile crewmen so we took up the responsibility) and they would respect the independence and sovereignty of the former Soviet and Warsaw Pact states. Which they have failed to do on numerous occasions.
The Ukrainians did.
