Continuing the discussion from WAR in Ukraine, Putin approves initiation of special military operation (Part 2) - #10132 by Bill.in.PA.
Previous discussions:
No, the people in Ukraine rejected it, because it broke the promise Yanakovich made when they elected him. They then protested for about a year until he decided to get in his car and leave. Leaving his deputy in his place.
1 Like
The months of Maidan protests were funded by western NGOs who are funded by the US government. The same is true for the right-wing paramilitaries who were responsible for bloody ending.
Where do you think the “more than $5 billion dollars” that Victoria “godfather” Nuland bragged about was going?
If you have any evidence for the “broken promise” claim, then provide it. Otherwise the assumption is that is just more propaganda from your friends in Langley and Foggy Bottom.
provide evidence that your made up ■■■■didn’t happen? That’s funny. How about you provide us with the signed agreement that states NATO will not allow any countries in Eastern Europe join.
How about something to prove it was Azov that shot at protesters and not NAZI Russian Wagners? Azov had no reason to shoot at them, the NAZI Wagners did. And no, a study by a leftist pro Russian professor in a leftist Canadian University who was looking to blame Azov won’t do.
The facts have not changed. Yankovich got in his car and drove himself to Russia. There was no Coup, nobody in uniforms broke into his office to arrest him, nobody chased him, nobody even tried to arrest him, his own deputy took over when he left.
I have already provided documents that confirm the multiple assurances that the US gave to get Moscow to agree with allowing a re-united Germany to remain in NATO.
Do you really think a signed and ratified agreement would have made any difference?
The Minsk Accords were unanimously ratified by the Security Council with the approval of the US. In 2022, Merkel admitted that the agreements were just a sham to buy time to rearm Ukraine.
As the American empire expanded westward in the 19th century, treaties with the native Americans were repeatedly made and then broken. The thing same has been true since 1990 for the expansion of the empire eastward.
The “rules-based international order” means that signed agreements with the US are not worth the paper they are printed on.
No, you haven’t. You posted Russian propaganda of stories about it. Where is the signed agreement?
so what? Russia was not under the threat of being invaded by Ukraine
and so what again? Russia has broken every agreement they’ve ever had with anyone.
your point is what exactly?
It wasn’t directed at anyone. We have one thread on this topic; I think the debate information is relevant to it. It shows how Trump thinks about the Ukraine, which is important: he may be the next president. No need to respond if you don’t want to.
I was curious about his 300,000 figure, too.
If I had to guess it’s that Trump is clueless about this, that he doesn’t care what the outcome is, and any deal he offers would be bad. This is the same guy who doesn’t like to be bothered by complicated things. A guy who literally when president when he was having problems with Turkey in Syria literally just said “I don’t care just pull out I give up.” On a whim that wasn’t even a feasibility. And yet this is somehow the guy that some people think would have prevented an invasion or knows how to make a deal with Putin. Or would somehow be better than the Biden administration has.
1 Like
300K is probably low. It was the last US intel estimate. The UK puts it at 500K. But that’s not dead, its total casualties, which include dead, too injured to fight, missing and captured.
I wish he had said what he’s said before. If Putin won’t agree to peace, he’ll flood Ukraine with weapons. It really is Ukraine’s only chance to win. With Biden/Harris Ukraine will eventually lose.
What he did in Syria was exactly the right thing to do. Was he supposed to get into a conflict with a NATO ally? Turkey did not ask, they said we’re coming in. They had every right to, to stop the PKK terror attacks in Turkey. What Trump did was tell the Kurds unless you want to be counted with the terrorists, move back 10 miles and we’ll continue to be there for you. This pitted Turkey against Assad (and by extension Russia) in norther Syria. Another good thing since Turkey had been getting too chummy with Russia (which they are again— Thanks Joe!).
1 Like
And it’s noteworthy that within months of that rejection, Russia invaded and took over Crimea.
yes, as soon as the next election when Ukraine overwhelmingly voted out any pro Russian parties.
Pretty much. There are some in Russia who even want to renege on their 1867 agreement to sell Alaska to the US. 
Wanna know what I find interesting? Ukraine is currently controlling nearly 500 square miles of Russian territory and the Russians have went tactical nuclear over it. Which means that the entire of idea of nuclear weapons mostly making you immune to conventional warfare may need to be rethought and I’m actually starting to feel now that NATO and Russia may could fight each other and it stay non-nuclear.
Because if you read the Russian nuclear white paper, it specifies that they reserve the right to use nuclear assets when their “territorial sovereignty and integrity are fundamentally threatened.” I would think Ukraine crossing over that border and occupying 500 square miles of territory would definitely be threatening to Russia’s territorial integrity.
So this war is getting even more crazy than it already has been and is rewriting both conventional war and the ideas behind nuclear escalation theory.
To be fair to the Russians, they mostly adhered to SALT, START, and New Start with us. We never accused them of violating them. Then again, arms control was to their advantage as well since it allowed them to decrease the financial cost of their strategic nuclear apparatus without having to worry to much about the US totally blowing a crap ton of money and building more nukes than we knew what to do with.
They totally violated INF. Which I kind of get because after the USSR collapsed the Russians lost a lot of their conventional warfare capabilities and decided to rely on nukes instead for their strategy. They needed those INF weapons for their nuclear strategy. One of the handful of Trump policies I fully supported was us withdrawing from the INF. The Russians turned it into a joke.
And they broke the Treaty on conventional forces in Europe treaty. But then again, NATO broke that treaty too so it wasn’t really worth anything to either side of the debate.
1 Like
There has never been a treaty Russia did not violate
SOVIET VIOLATIONS OF ARMS CONTROL AGREEMENTS | CIA FOIA (foia.cia.gov).
On a related note: This part of the debate—it’s so illustrative:
TRUMP: But just so you understand, they sent her to negotiate peace before this war started. Three days later he went in and he started the war because everything they said was weak and stupid. They said the wrong things. That war should have never started. She was the emissary. They sent her in to negotiate with Zelenskyy and Putin. And she did and the war started three days later.
It’s not just that he’s wrong and that he’s lying; it’s also that he has no idea what he’s talking about or what happened and he doesn’t care.
he was wrong to add Putin, he was exactly correct about her going in and the invasion happening 3 days later. Hell, even she said so.
he is also right that everything Biden/Harris did only encouraged Putin to do it.
Freezing weapons shipments to Ukraine in an attempt to appease Putin a few months before the invasion and then running around thumping your chest about sanctions, unless its just a little invasion, maybe, but the mother of all sanctions, was the perfect invitation to Putin to go ahead and do it. he cared nothing about sanctions, in his mind the whole thing would be over in a few weeks and the sanctions would never take effect.
Biden/Harris is a moron
since the invasion its even worse. These idiots are so scared of what happens after Putin that they are virtually making it impossible for Ukraine to win and keeping him in power.
1 Like
