Should 11-year-old girls have to bear their rapists' babies? Ohio says yes

[Samm]

@JayJay

Jezcoe did not say the law determines that which is moral and that which is immoral.

He said morality informs the law, which is an entirely different statement altogether.

How does the immorality of killing unborn babies inform the law that permits it?

[Samm]

The question “Who has said “makes her have the baby”?” was said in the context of posts in this thread. You knew that, I am sure. Please don’t go all nit-picky on me here just to try to make a point.

[Samm]

@Jezcoe

@Samm

@JayJay

@Samm

@JayJay

@Samm

No, I would not. Murder is not immoral because the law makes it illegal, and likewise, abortion is not moral because the law permits it.

That does not invalidate what @Jezcoe said.

You are simply taking a narrower view.

Actually, it does. Any relationship between morality and the law are coincidental, not causal. How can anyone honestly make the claim that killing unborn children is moral just because it is legal? If you think that, you do not understand either morality or the law.

You’re arguing precisely backwards.

Nope. And the example of laws permitting abortion proves that. The law does not determine what is or is not moral. Sometimes the two … the law and morality … coincide, but in fact, there is no requirement that there be, and most often, there is no connection or as is the case with permissive abortion laws, the exact opposite occurs. Nobody can honestly say that the legal killing unborn babies is moral.

No one can claim that forcing a woman to carry to term a pregnancy that is the result of a rape is moral either.

For the umpteenth time, I agree.

[Jezcoe]

This entire discussion is about the law.

It is impossible to discuss the law without discussing morality since it is morality that informs the law.

It isn’t a rationalization and accepting your inserted premise that an embryo at six weeks is anywhere near being the same as a fully born baby.

A woman has a right to autonomy. As a fetus nears viability, rights are conferred upon that fetus that always remain secondary to the health of the mother.

It is that intersection that is debate.

Both are equal in morality.

Both are important.

[Samm]

@Jezcoe

This entire discussion is about the law.

It is impossible to discuss the law without discussing morality since it is morality that informs the law.

It isn’t a rationalization and accepting your inserted premise that an embryo at six weeks is anywhere near being the same as a fully born baby.

A woman has a right to autonomy. As a fetus nears viability, rights are conferred upon that fetus that always remain secondary to the health of the mother.

It is that intersection that is debate.

Both are equal in morality.

Both are important.

Both the mother and the unborn baby (regardless of its “age”) have an equal moral right of autonomy to their bodies. The law cannot resolve that issue.

[Jezcoe]

@Samm

@Jezcoe

This entire discussion is about the law.

It is impossible to discuss the law without discussing morality since it is morality that informs the law.

It isn’t a rationalization and accepting your inserted premise that an embryo at six weeks is anywhere near being the same as a fully born baby.

A woman has a right to autonomy. As a fetus nears viability, rights are conferred upon that fetus that always remain secondary to the health of the mother.

It is that intersection that is debate.

Both are equal in morality.

Both are important.

Both the mother and the unborn baby (regardless of its “age”) have an equal moral right of autonomy to their bodies. The law cannot resolve that issue.

A Six week embryo is incapable of autonomy.

It doesn’t have a prefrontal cortex yet.

[Samm]

You have now introduced a new criteria into the question … “prefrontal cortex.” So when does that occur? Prior to or after the heart begins to beat? You seem to be looking very hard to find a rational to let you off the morality of extinguishing a human life hook.

A two-year old child is no more capable of sustaining its own life than a six-week old fetus. Should that be the criteria for legalizing infanticide?

[JayJay]

@Samm

You have now introduced a new criteria into the question … “prefrontal cortex.” So when does that occur? Prior to or after the heart begins to beat? You seem to be looking very hard to find a rational to let you off the morality of extinguishing a human life hook.

A two-year old child is no more capable of sustaining its own life than a six-week old fetus. Should that be the criteria for legalizing infanticide?

Yes a two year old is more capable of sustaining its own life than a six week old fetus.

Maybe not for long but definitely more capable.

And Jezcoe admits the taking of human life isn’t moral so you’re barking up the wrong tree there.

He’s already said what we’ve got is two competing moralities here, and R v W is our human attempt at compromise.

[Jezcoe]

@Samm

You have now introduced a new criteria into the question … “prefrontal cortex.” So when does that occur? Prior to or after the heart begins to beat? You seem to be looking very hard to find a rational to let you off the morality of extinguishing a human life hook.

A two-year old child is no more capable of sustaining its own life than a six-week old fetus. Should that be the criteria for legalizing infanticide?

I haven’t introduced anything new at all.

The argument has been since the beginning that as a fetus nears viability that it gets rights of protection.

The idea that an embryo developed at six weeks has autonomy is silly since it has no way to exercise it’s autonomy. It is completely dependent on the mother since it is inhabiting her body.

Now I know where the objection to this can go. That why do we not extend this to people who are alive an disabled. The repose to that is that they are already born and have value as living breathing humans.

They are fundamentally different than a human who is in development and has not yet obtained personhood.

There is a line that we are forced to establish around this in order not have really serious conflicts with how our laws react to this moral question.

[Samm]

@JayJay

@Samm

You have now introduced a new criteria into the question … “prefrontal cortex.” So when does that occur? Prior to or after the heart begins to beat? You seem to be looking very hard to find a rational to let you off the morality of extinguishing a human life hook.

A two-year old child is no more capable of sustaining its own life than a six-week old fetus. Should that be the criteria for legalizing infanticide?

Yes a two year old is more capable of sustaining its own life than a six week old fetus.

Maybe not for long but definitely more capable.

So now length of time is part of the criteria?

But living off body reserves is NOT sustaining oneself.

[JayJay]

@Samm

@JayJay

@Samm

You have now introduced a new criteria into the question … “prefrontal cortex.” So when does that occur? Prior to or after the heart begins to beat? You seem to be looking very hard to find a rational to let you off the morality of extinguishing a human life hook.

A two-year old child is no more capable of sustaining its own life than a six-week old fetus. Should that be the criteria for legalizing infanticide?

Yes a two year old is more capable of sustaining its own life than a six week old fetus.

Maybe not for long but definitely more capable.

So now length of time is part of the criteria?

But living off body reserves is NOT sustaining oneself.

A two year old is mobile and already has some idea as to what is edible and what is not.

A two year old can speak and communicate.

You are vastly underestimating what a two year old can do compared to a six week old fetus in order to make an incorrect analogy.

[Samm]

You keep changing the criteria … first it was that a six-week old fetus does not have a heart to beat. Now you are bringing up prefrontal cortexes as being necessary for a life to have autonomy. Does an amoeba have autonomy over it’s body?

[conan]

But yet not one single lib wants to charge the rapist for murder…not one single lib on this forum.

[JayJay]

@conan

But yet not one single lib wants to charge the rapist for murder…not one single lib on this forum.

Why would the rapist be charged with murder?

[Samm]

Okay … how about a one-year old, or maybe a six month old, can we kill them because they cannot sustain themselves? I’m just trying to figure out where the line would be, if that were the criteria used to allow it to live.

[conan]

For me religion has nothing to do with it…nothing.

[Samm]

@JayJay

@conan

But yet not one single lib wants to charge the rapist for murder…not one single lib on this forum.

Why would the rapist be charged with murder?

For the same reason as the driver of the getaway car can be charged with murder if their accomplice kills the bank guard.

[conan]

Who’s morality?

Seems to me 99.999% libs want to replace Christian morality with one of their own in goverment.

So I ask you…what make those libs any different then religious right you rail against?

Or are those 99.999% of libs special?

[conan]

If she needs abortion because her health depends on it. Then why wouldn’t you charge the rapist for murder?

[JayJay]

@Samm

Okay … how about a one-year old, or maybe a six month old, can we kill them because they cannot sustain themselves? I’m just trying to figure out where the line would be, if that were the criteria used to allow it to live.

It’s not the criteria Jezcoe was using. He was simply pointing out the fallacy of your argument that a six week old fetus has the same autonomy as the mother.

As has been stated time and time again, we set a dividing line. It is an imperfect dividing line…but it exists because of challenging moral conflicts.

The MORAL CONFLICT is why the dividing line has been set. You say you agree with it, then continue to fall back on one of the moralities involved in the conflict anyway.

BTW- this valuing of some life over the other plays out on this side of the womb too.

As I stated, everyone…EVERYONE…values some human life more than others, no matter how many times they try to pretend they don’t.