It's Official: US auto dealers from every automaker oppose Biden's Eco agenda. (The same one automakers are abandoning as fast as they can.)

[Gaius]

So . . .
the following post (from earlier in the thread) remains relevant.

@Gaius

According to MS CoPilot (which is sometimes accurate):

1. Average subsidy to the manufacturer per EV made in the USA: The average subsidy to manufacturers is quite substantial, with estimates suggesting that it amounts to around $32,000 per additional EV sold. This figure includes various incentives and support programs aimed at boosting EV production.
2. Average subsidy to the buyer per EV bought in the USA: For buyers, the federal tax credit is up to $7,500 per qualifying EV. Additionally, state and local incentives can add up to around $1,500 per EV purchase. So, the total average subsidy to the buyer can be around $9,000.
3. Average subsidy to the manufacturer per EV made in the USA: Stanford Report on Electric Vehicle Subsidies
4. Average subsidy to the buyer per EV bought in the USA: Heritage Foundation on EV Subsidies
   .
   .
   .
   .
   For $7,500 how many Americans would

• poke themselves in the eye with a stick?
• buy a pet rock?

I argue that in both cases the answer “more than have bought an EV.”
Ergo, EVs are currently less popular than either one.

[Zippy]

@Toll_Collector

most people aren’t rooting against EVs, just the mandates.

Exactly, and the tax credits. I have nothing against being able to buy an EV, go ahead and buy whatever. But don’t be expecting me and others like me to pay 7500.00 towards your car because you want to be “trendy “.

[Toll_Collector]

@Gaius

@Toll_Collector

From what I heard, it’s very difficult for a charging station to be profitable.

Well they can

• raise the price, or
• open a conveniencestore instead of locating tem in a cow pasture
• (just like real gas stations do)
  

Most of the charging station I see are already at convenience stores or rest areas. But there’s a thing called demand charges. Something gas stations don’t have to deal with.

[Gaius]

If we actually want to reduce CO2
(well, that is different than writing checks to political donors,)
but if we actually want to reduce CO2 then we should note that on average (varies by state) gas taxes are 50.8cents per gallon and then tax all carbon equally.

No need for EV subisiies, or windmill tax credits.
No need tpo choose which industry wins and which one loses.
Just tax all carbon equally and let teh market decide.

Worst way you could do it?
Tax American labor and business,
Then enact a bunch of subisides to favor ne technology that is wholly reliant on Chinese minerals.

[Samm]

@tnt

@TheRedComet

Actually, cutting the subsidy would probably help Tesla. They’re the one EV manufacturer in the US who actually turns a profit on their EV products. If the subsidy was cut and the prices were more accurately reflected across the EV market, it would probably help him out since he could still turn profit on the cars they sell. Whereas most everyone else needs that federal subsidy just to get their cars at a reasonable enough price for people to buy them and they barely profit on them as it is.

@tnt

Pulling up the ladder might be a smart move for him actually.

I agree.

But the resulting up tick in price to consumer will stifle sales.

People who can afford Teslas don’t need the subsidy. And Tesla doesn’t get nearly the manufacturing subsidy that GM and Ford gets. If all the Federal subsidies were to end, the competition’s cars would be unaffordable to the average buyer too. Yes, sales would be stifled, but not much for Tesla. Chances are, the competition would have to stop making many of their EV models leaving Tesla with a larger share of the market. .

[tnt]

@Samm

People who can afford Teslas don’t need the subsidy

that’s not true at all.

Are there a lot of teslas in AK? I would think the cold environment might slow sales given the performance of batteries at low temps.

[TheRedComet]

Considering the absolute cheapest Tesla is now the Model 3 AWD at about 45k, not many American families can splurge that in one go. If you can actually responsibly afford that, you don’t need the subsidy. If you need a subsidy to afford it, bud, you’re making a financially awful decision.

[Samm]

@tnt

@Samm

People who can afford Teslas don’t need the subsidy

that’s not true at all.

Are there a lot of teslas in AK? I would think the cold environment might slow sales given the performance of batteries at low temps.

That is an entirely different topic.

[biggestal99]

@DougBH

I would only be impressed if they sold based on their own merits, not based of government subsidies. You pay them enough and somebody will “buy” anything.

whats wrong with govt subsidies?

farmers get them and i dont hear you complaining about them.

Allan

[DougBH]

Central government planning of the economy failed in the old Soviet Union and in Eastern Europe. I don’t think we should make that our economic policy.
But I am familiar with the old “if we can have free government libraries, then why can’t the government control all aspects of our economy and lives” tactic.

[tnt]

@TheRedComet

Considering the absolute cheapest Tesla is now the Model 3 AWD at about 45k, not many American families can splurge that in one go. If you can actually responsibly afford that, you don’t need the subsidy. If you need a subsidy to afford it, bud, you’re making a financially awful decision.

The average price for a new car in the US is 48K.

Not many american families can afford a new car?

[tnt]

@Samm

@tnt

@Samm

People who can afford Teslas don’t need the subsidy

that’s not true at all.

Are there a lot of teslas in AK? I would think the cold environment might slow sales given the performance of batteries at low temps.

That is an entirely different topic.

I ask because in my area, Teslas and EVs in general are very common. I see them parked in front of all sorts of houses - big wealth houses, small rental places,etc…

I wonder if you just don’t see them as frequently and think they are a bauble for the rich.

[TheRedComet]

Nope. People have been priced out of new cars.

Now you blow 20 grand on four year old used cars.

[Toll_Collector]

@TheRedComet

Nope. People have been priced out of new cars.

Now you blow 20 grand on four year old used cars.

I wouldn’t buy a new car now. Spending 45-50k on a new car is a huge waste of money.

[Toll_Collector]

@tnt

@Samm

@tnt

@Samm

People who can afford Teslas don’t need the subsidy

that’s not true at all.

Are there a lot of teslas in AK? I would think the cold environment might slow sales given the performance of batteries at low temps.

That is an entirely different topic.

I ask because in my area, Teslas and EVs in general are very common. I see them parked in front of all sorts of houses - big wealth houses, small rental places,etc…

I wonder if you just don’t see them as frequently and think they are a bauble for the rich.

Where in NJ do you live? I know I asked you this before. Just like I’ll probably ask you again. I’m down in Howell Township and I don’t see any Teslas. I’m a toll collector and I don’t see any EVs coming through my lane. But they could all have EZ-Pass.

[TheRedComet]

To be honest, when it comes to being financially smart, buying any kind of car over ten grand is dumb. Most people can save up 10 grand over a few years. You save that, buy a ten year old Camry owned by an old person with low mileage, and then drive that thing until it literally falls apart. That’s the only smart way to actually buy a car if all you need it to do is go to work every day.

[Toll_Collector]

Agreed 100%. Back in 2019 my wife bought a Toyota Avalon for 44k, cash. Obviously we’re not struggling. But you can’t now buy that kind of 6 cylinder car for that money. Two years after she bought it, the dealer called her to buy it back for more than she paid for it. That’s insane.

Now you don’t even get that quality for 44k. That’s like 60k. As far as EVs go, I’d buy one of the cheap used Teslas for 15-20k before buying a new one.

[tnt]

@Toll_Collector

Where in NJ do you live? I know I asked you this before. Just like I’ll probably ask you again. I’m down in Howell Township and I don’t see any Teslas. I’m a toll collector and I don’t see any EVs coming through my lane. But they could all have EZ-Pass.

Mercer County. Tons of them here.

[Guilds]

@DougBH

Central government planning of the economy failed in the old Soviet Union and in Eastern Europe. I don’t think we should make that our economic policy.

Subsidies are not communism.

[Guilds]

@TheRedComet

Now you blow 20 grand on four year old used cars.

2025 Honda HR-V Hybrid MSRP $27K

I have a 2020 CR-V Hybrid, great car, 38 MPG Paid $32k out the door.

These type cars can get over 200k miles with minimal issues, if one takes care of it.