God and the Devil


#562

His love is why He sent priests from your religion to abuse children?


#563

Why do you ask me this?


#564

To find out why you think your caring, loving God would do such a thing?


#565

I see. I am certain you are able to understand ramifications of free will.


#566

Then why did God intervene 2000 years ago? It’s weird how free will is disregarded in all the biblical accounts where God intervenes and performs miracles to save people.


#567

An explanation from a passage of the Lotus Sutra containing the Parable of the Magic City

"By way of example, monks, suppose there is some dense forest five hundred yoganas in extent which has been reached by a great company of men. They have a guide to lead them on their journey to the Isle of Jewels, which guide, being able, clever, sagacious, well acquainted with the difficult passages of the forest, is to bring the whole company out of the forest. Meanwhile that great troop of men, tired, weary, afraid, and anxious, say: ’

Verily, Master, guide, and leader, know that we are tired, weary, afraid, and anxious; let us return; this dense forest stretches so far.’

The guide, who is a man of able devices, on seeing those people desirous of returning, thinks within himself:

It ought not to be that these poor creatures should not reach that great Isle of Jewels.

Therefore out of pity for them he makes use of an artifice. In the middle of that forest he produces a magic city more than a hundred or two hundred yoganas in extent. Thereafter he says to those men: ‘Be not afraid, sirs, do not return; there you see a populous place where you may take repose and perform all you have to do; there stay in the enjoyment of happy rest. Let him who after reposing there wants to do so, proceed to the great Isle of Jewels.’

Then, monks, the men who are in the forest are struck with astonishment, and think: We are out of the forest; we have reached the place of happy rest; let us stay here. They enter that magic city, in the meaning that they have arrived at the place of their destination, that they are saved and in the enjoyment of rest. They think: We are at rest, we are refreshed’.

After a while, when the guide perceives that their fatigue is gone, he causes the magic city to disappear, and says to them: ‘Come, sirs, there you see the great Isle of Jewels quite near; as to this great city, it has been produced by me for no other purpose but to give you some repose.’

In the same manner, monks, is the Tathâgata, the Arhat,&c., your guide, and the guide of all other beings. Indeed, monks, the Tathâgata, &c., reflects thus: Great is this forest of evils which must be crossed, left, shunned.

It ought not to be that these beings, after hearing the Buddha-knowledge, should suddenly turn back and not proceed to the end because they think: This Buddha-knowledge is attended with too many difficulties to be gone through to the end.

Under those circumstances the Tathâgata, knowing the creatures to be feeble of character, (does) as the guide (who) produces the magic city in order that those people may have repose, and after their having taken repose, he tells them that the city is one produced by magic. In the same manner, monks, the Tathâgata, &c., to give a repose to the creatures, very skilfully teaches and proclaims two stages of

Nirvâna, viz. the stage of the disciples and that of the Pratyekabuddhas.

And, monks, when the creatures are there halting, then the Tathâgata, &c., himself, pronounces these words:

‘You have not accomplished your task, monks; you have not finished what you had to do. But behold, monks! the Buddha-knowledge is near; behold and be convinced: what to you (seems) Nirvâna, that is not Nirvâna. Nay, monks, it is an able device of the Tathâgatas, &c., that they expound three vehicles.’


#568

You have to understand that he only used miracles to save those who had used thier free will to do his bidding. Everyone else was expendable.

The only problem with the idea of free will is that it is contradictory to the actual words of the Bible. I mean really…God told man that he knew who you would become before he put you in the belly. To me, that means he knew all of your choices and decisions from the moment he created you. That being said, I recognize that both things can actually exist at the same time (meaning free will and the fact that God knew what he was creating from the millisecond he created it), but that brings into question something that bothers Christians in the long run…the simple fact that if both of those things are true, then there is only one entity that is responsible for all the evil that exists in the world today. Sure, he would also be credited with all the good, but its basically impossible to have it both ways, and that sticks in the craw of more than a few believers.


#569

I know I have brought this up before, but I believe it bears keeping in mind. As a human being, do you feel you are limited to loving other humans who are close to perfect? The deformed, the mentally incapacitated, the grumpy, those with unnatural sexual urges are beneath you and unworthy of your regard? Love is one of the greatest gifts we can give to one another. Unlimited love has great power.


#570

If I could stop or cure those things, I certainly would. That’s love. To have that ability and not do it would be cruel and evil.


#571

I get it. You can only love that which is perfect–anything less is unworthy. Loving and bringing forth goodness from the imperfect isn’t what matters to you.


#572

No, you don’t get it. I would love them enough not to abandon them when I have the ability to help them, unlike your God.


#573

You give the impression I see from some when I work with the mentally and physically disabled. Too many of your “perfect” kids are afraid to even brush against them–as though they have something contagious. Your “perfect” kids leave their trash around, while the developmentally disabled pick up after them. Too many of your “perfect” kids are lazy, sliding by with the minimal amount of effort, while the developmentally disabled work hard for the type of knowledge your “perfect” kids take for granted. Sometimes I would not wish that “perfect” kid life on any of the disabled kids. In many ways they lucked out.

I get wanting everything “fixed”. But it is kind of arrogant to believe it is you who know what that “perfect” fix is. Perfection is not laziness.


#574

So it’s a good thing people suffer in pain and disability their entire lives?


#575

Not what we are discussing. What is best: Cookie stamp perfectionism with a puppet master pulling strings vs learning to love and bring goodness out of that which is imperfect with freedom of choice? I understand your ideal existence is to be that perfect puppet master of perfection. Would you be equally as happy being the perfect puppet of someone else?


#576

Funny. God created a heaven that has no suffering. Heaven must be a terrible place to live, by your standards.


#577

Yea, the black plague or the next asteroid that wipes out the earth is “freedom of choice”.


#578

You’re basically saying suffering is a prerequisite for existence. Therefore suffering must exist in heaven. Either that, or God unecessarily created a world filled with suffering. You’re between a rock and a hard place.


#579

Such a primitive interpretation. Literalized thinking.

The way things are is karma and recompence, cause and effect. This is because there is a goal and in order to reach the goal, karma must be expiated. This isn’t God, deciding to torture people, this the law of God/Buddha nature, the expedient means, so beings can learn how the law operates.

God/Buddha nature isn’t a welfare worker. Without the suffering no one aspires to deep awakening. God/Buddha nature naturally functions in accordance to the law of cause and effect.

Ask not what God/Buddha nature can do for you, ask what you can do for your own Buddha nature. You have to do it yourself.


#580

Nobodys talking about Buddhism


#581

it’s not chopped liver.

“What is the karma of one with incorrigible disbelief.”
Could be the thread title in a smarter incarnation.

Atheists shaping the meaning of religion as this and that, will certainly fail, to understand.

Even explicit demonstration of the common origin of Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism Judaism means nothing to icchantika.

How can they ever return to the true intent of religion, other then by suffering? Eventually they cannot hold onto their arrogance. Without that suffering they just grow in arrogance. So they are left, negotiating into oblivion.

If one searches for a version of God they like then they can search the writings of early church fathers and then discover the bitter rivalries of interpretation, often ending in expulsion and martyrdom of one side or the other.

But a Atheist…prefers to look at interpretation and scoff, asking stupid, disingenuous questions then to surrender to faith, practice and works, the only way to salvation or Buddhahood. They play a word game and reduce themselves into a circus geek, biting off the head of a chicken to display their degradation and how low they can sink.

Languages and terms differ and some look at these arguments and their entire motivation is to ridicule religion. Actual faith and practice is dispised by them, so they remain blind and deaf and gag on their own tongue.