You should scold the SCOTUS. Everything from makeup artists, to sandwich artists, to floral arrangement artists were used in analogies.
zantax:My argument is it is not discrimination against the person but rather the expressed purpose and meaning of an object.
The expressed purpose of celebrating being a member of a protected class.
Being in a protected class doesn’t make your celebration any more protected than the celebration of a white supremacist.
calirepub: zantax:My argument is it is not discrimination against the person but rather the expressed purpose and meaning of an object.
The expressed purpose of celebrating being a member of a protected class.
Being in a protected class doesn’t make your celebration any more protected than the celebration of a white supremacist.
Thank you for stating your position so clearly.
zantax:And pass up the opportunity to educate you that being a member of a protected class doesn’t grant you special privilege. Nah. Being in a protected class protects you from being treated differently, it doesn’t give you special rights nobody else has.
What’s funny is that this baker was using his OWN protected class status in order to discriminate against another protected class. Irony.
It doesn’t grant him special license either. If it is discrimination against a protected class, his own protected class status can’t save him.
zantax: calirepub: zantax:My argument is it is not discrimination against the person but rather the expressed purpose and meaning of an object.
The expressed purpose of celebrating being a member of a protected class.
Being in a protected class doesn’t make your celebration any more protected than the celebration of a white supremacist.
Thank you for stating your position so clearly.
Is this the part where you pretend my contention that the law doesn’t grant more protection to a transgender persons celebration than it does to a white supremacists celebration is the same thing as saying I personally find them to be of equal moral validity or offensiveness? Do you feel the need to stoop so low?
Thank you for stating your position so clearly.
Is this the part where you pretend
Shame on you to accuse me of things I wouldn’t do. I thanked you for stating your position so clearly. I was going to let other people attack your stated position. My work here is done.
zantax:Thank you for stating your position so clearly.
Is this the part where you pretend
Shame on you to accuse me of things I wouldn’t do. I thanked you for stating your position so clearly. I was going to let other people attack your stated position. My work here is done.
Uh huh. Look, the court is going to face the same dilemma you are faced with here. How oh how do we force this baker to act against his personal moral code but somehow not end up with everyone else being forced to do the same thing.
reflechissez: zantax:I’ll tell you what is tortured about it, you know full well artists that offer custom designs routinely retain creative control and the right to refuse to do a work they do not want to do. Just because a tattoo artist offers custom tattoo’s he is not obligated to create any design you want.
Do you think that the baker has never baked a blue and pink cake? Bake the cake, put icing on it. Maybe even include some iced piping around the edges. That’s not “art.” I don’t see where the lawyer requested a customized, transgender design. Did you?
Yes, there was obviously something about the design he felt made it a transgender celebration cake or he would have just asked for a cake. And yes, creating a cake is art. It may not always be complex art but it is art. A drawing or painting can be simple and even routine and common place but it is still art.
from Art Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
4 the conscious use of skill and creative imagination especially in the production of aesthetic objects
- the art of painting landscapes
; also : works so produced
- a gallery for modern art
Aesthetics are a main component in cakes. They require skill and creativity to create, custom ones anyway. The best bakers have a reputation for aesthetics to uphold, it is what sets them apart from lower paid people who can bake good tasting ugly cakes. Look at his website, he holds himself out as a talented artist who makes custom cakes, not a mere baker.
Are you suggesting that he doesn’t just bake plain, old cakes?
Look, the court is going to face the same dilemma you are faced with here.
I agree. It’s going to be interesting to read their decision.
How oh how do we force this baker to act against his personal moral code but somehow not end up with everyone else being forced to do the same thing.
We had to force sandwich shops to allow black people to sit inside, even if it was against the owner’s moral code. We survived.
But hey, I encourage you to find a black tattoo artist doing custom tattoo’s and go in and ask him to give you a tattoo consisting of some squiggly lines that you claim represents whites superiority over black people and see if he submits to your request.
No white person would do that. Let’s move on to the next irrelevant analogy.
Go into a black barbershop and ask for a buzz cut, be sure and mention its a KKK cut and see if you get a haircut or an ass kicking.
no white person would do that. Let’s move on.
They’re sticking with this lie.
Calirepub has been directly corrected on this. He knows it’s dishonest. He’ll keep asking it though.
So why bother? Let it go.
There are plenty of people on this board and outside of it who loathe bullying. The “win” takes place in the market both for the baker and for the transvestite. What the lesson should be is mutual respect.
But, that isn’t going to happen.
A baker who has a moral objection to people eating his cakes. So weird.
He has a moral objection to people asking him to be complicit.
What is a gender celebration cake? Does it have special ingredients? Wouldn’t a birthday cake with a different label be the exact same thing?
It is the intent of the request for a custom cake, not the ingredients.
calirepub:What is a gender celebration cake? Does it have special ingredients? Wouldn’t a birthday cake with a different label be the exact same thing?
It is the intent of the request for a custom cake, not the ingredients.
You can’t even describe what was “custom” about the cake.
You can’t even describe what was “custom” about the cake.
The request was custom.
What I learned today…
Being a part of a protected class, doesn’t make you special
That I can discriminate against the celebration of a person of a protected class but I cannot discriminate against that person of a protected class
That offering something of lesser value to a person of a protected class for the sole reason of not liking that protected class… is not discrimination…because after all I still “served” you
reflechissez:You can’t even describe what was “custom” about the cake.
The request was custom.
You’re flailing.
What I learned today…
Being a part of a protected class, doesn’t make you special
That I can discriminate against the celebration of a person of a protected class but I cannot discriminate against that person of a protected class
That offering something of lesser value to a person of a protected class for the sole reason of not liking that protected class… is not discrimination…because after all I still “served” you
Don’t forget to add that the nature of a cake changes depending on the words you use to describe it.
zantax:But hey, I encourage you to find a black tattoo artist doing custom tattoo’s and go in and ask him to give you a tattoo consisting of some squiggly lines that you claim represents whites superiority over black people and see if he submits to your request.
No white person would do that. Let’s move on to the next irrelevant analogy.
Absurd, how do you know what every white person would or wouldn’t do?