Why would Satan incite the people?

[Optrader]

@Borgia_dude

@Optrader

@Borgia_dude

@Optrader

@Borgia_dude

@Paul_Thomson

@Borgia_dude

So if we have freewill but would be very unlikely to sin, why didn’t God just make us humans like that in the first place? Why go through the rigamarole of the earthly existence?

We will be like that only because we have learnt by seeing evil done to and by us, and to and by others, that it is a losing and undesirable strategy, and have learnt not to choose it.

Hmm, that doesn’t make sense. Babies that die haven’t learned anything.

They will never suffer any pain or the trials and tribulations of life on Earth either.

So how can these babies learn that sin is an undesirable strategy? That is the reason Paul have for our life here in earth in preparation for Heaven.

We are not islands unto ourselves. The entirety of humanity is under the death penalty for sin. You perceive an injustice that a baby is denied a small handful of decades of life on Earth as if this life is what’s the most important. It isn’t. Why would you assume that a baby that dies would have had a great life? How could you know if any baby might have been born into misery, neglect or abuse?

Hmm, do you apply this argument to abortion?

But I was discussing Paul’s position that life on earth teaches us the perils of sin which leads us to not wanting to sin in heaven.

My point about the babies was that they would not have the chance to learn about any perils of sin if their life was cut short.

Does watching a drunk or drug addict vomit and sleep in a gutter teach you anything?

[Borgia_dude]

@Optrader

@Borgia_dude

@Optrader

@Borgia_dude

@Optrader

@Borgia_dude

@Paul_Thomson

@Borgia_dude

So if we have freewill but would be very unlikely to sin, why didn’t God just make us humans like that in the first place? Why go through the rigamarole of the earthly existence?

We will be like that only because we have learnt by seeing evil done to and by us, and to and by others, that it is a losing and undesirable strategy, and have learnt not to choose it.

Hmm, that doesn’t make sense. Babies that die haven’t learned anything.

They will never suffer any pain or the trials and tribulations of life on Earth either.

So how can these babies learn that sin is an undesirable strategy? That is the reason Paul have for our life here in earth in preparation for Heaven.

We are not islands unto ourselves. The entirety of humanity is under the death penalty for sin. You perceive an injustice that a baby is denied a small handful of decades of life on Earth as if this life is what’s the most important. It isn’t. Why would you assume that a baby that dies would have had a great life? How could you know if any baby might have been born into misery, neglect or abuse?

Hmm, do you apply this argument to abortion?

But I was discussing Paul’s position that life on earth teaches us the perils of sin which leads us to not wanting to sin in heaven.

My point about the babies was that they would not have the chance to learn about any perils of sin if their life was cut short.

Does watching a drunk or drug addict vomit and sleep in a gutter teach you anything?

Yes. Babies haven’t seen that, have they?

[Borgia_dude]

@Optrader

@Borgia_dude

@Optrader

@Borgia_dude

@Paul_Thomson

@Borgia_dude

@Paul_Thomson

@AZslim

If you sin in heaven can you be sent to hell?

If you sin and are unrepentant about it, the sacrifice for sin does not apply to you. But if you repent, it does apply. So, it depends on whether a human being who makes it into heaven would take the belligerently unrepentant route. Highly unlikely IMHO.

So one can sin in heaven, we just won’t want to?

We could, but are highly unlikely to want to do so deliberately. Nor are we likely to continue doing so, once we realise we are. Imo.

So if we have freewill but would be very unlikely to sin, why didn’t God just make us humans like that in the first place? Why go through the rigamarole of the earthly existence?

I asked you about being a slave or robot and you didn’t think it relevant. So in light of this question, again, I’ll ask: would you like to be a robot or slave?

No, I wouldn’t.

The Hallmark of tyranny is forcing obedience. A tyrant like Kim Jung Un or Stalin or any number of people who you know about past or present, has no conscience about forcing people to obey. They may even convince themselves that people are doing it willingly. If you had the power, as a ruler of a kingdom or nation, to force people to obey you, would you take it and do so?

So is your point that God is a benevolent dictator for his earthly subjects but is a tyrant to his subjects in Heaven?

[Optrader]

@Borgia_dude

@Optrader

@Borgia_dude

@Optrader

@Borgia_dude

@Paul_Thomson

@Borgia_dude

So if we have freewill but would be very unlikely to sin, why didn’t God just make us humans like that in the first place? Why go through the rigamarole of the earthly existence?

We will be like that only because we have learnt by seeing evil done to and by us, and to and by others, that it is a losing and undesirable strategy, and have learnt not to choose it.

Hmm, that doesn’t make sense. Babies that die haven’t learned anything.

They will never suffer any pain or the trials and tribulations of life on Earth either.

So how can these babies learn that sin is an undesirable strategy? That is the reason Paul have for our life here in earth in preparation for Heaven.

We are not islands unto ourselves. The entirety of humanity is under the death penalty for sin. You perceive an injustice that a baby is denied a small handful of decades of life on Earth as if this life is what’s the most important. It isn’t. Why would you assume that a baby that dies would have had a great life? How could you know if any baby might have been born into misery, neglect or abuse?

Hmm, do you apply this argument to abortion?

But I was discussing Paul’s position that life on earth teaches us the perils of sin which leads us to not wanting to sin in heaven.

My point about the babies was that they would not have the chance to learn about any perils of sin if their life was cut short.

It is not OUR prerogative to take life except in certain circumstances. The circumstances where we may take life are not things that God would choose for us. War, for example or executing criminals. These two things are our own doing. Killing an unborn child for the simple convenience of the woman is not acceptable reason. I will grant that child goes to Heaven, but as God is the only being that can create or restore life, it is his prerogative to decide when someone goes, not ours.

[Meriweather]

@AZslim

Why can’t He just show us a divine movie or something explaining how good we have it in heaven.

Jesus said, “I go to prepare a place for you…” Why isn’t knowing there is a place for you enough?

Personally, I suspect that due to the number of videos and Power Point presentations I view in the course of my job, I might be a little jaded about that means of communication.

[Optrader]

@Borgia_dude

@Optrader

@Borgia_dude

@Optrader

@Borgia_dude

@Paul_Thomson

@Borgia_dude

@Paul_Thomson

@AZslim

If you sin in heaven can you be sent to hell?

If you sin and are unrepentant about it, the sacrifice for sin does not apply to you. But if you repent, it does apply. So, it depends on whether a human being who makes it into heaven would take the belligerently unrepentant route. Highly unlikely IMHO.

So one can sin in heaven, we just won’t want to?

We could, but are highly unlikely to want to do so deliberately. Nor are we likely to continue doing so, once we realise we are. Imo.

So if we have freewill but would be very unlikely to sin, why didn’t God just make us humans like that in the first place? Why go through the rigamarole of the earthly existence?

I asked you about being a slave or robot and you didn’t think it relevant. So in light of this question, again, I’ll ask: would you like to be a robot or slave?

No, I wouldn’t.

The Hallmark of tyranny is forcing obedience. A tyrant like Kim Jung Un or Stalin or any number of people who you know about past or present, has no conscience about forcing people to obey. They may even convince themselves that people are doing it willingly. If you had the power, as a ruler of a kingdom or nation, to force people to obey you, would you take it and do so?

So is your point that God is a benevolent dictator for his earthly subjects but is a tyrant to his subjects in Heaven?

Not at all. Absolutely no one in Heaven got there by force. We will have not only a body, but the same nature that Adam and Eve had in Eden. Two big differences though. First, Satan is out of the picture entirely. He and all his followers are in Hell so there is not going to be any temptations in Heaven and second, all of the redeemed, plus all the angels will know God was right.

[Optrader]

@Borgia_dude

@Optrader

@Borgia_dude

@Optrader

@Borgia_dude

@Paul_Thomson

@Borgia_dude

@Paul_Thomson

@AZslim

If you sin in heaven can you be sent to hell?

If you sin and are unrepentant about it, the sacrifice for sin does not apply to you. But if you repent, it does apply. So, it depends on whether a human being who makes it into heaven would take the belligerently unrepentant route. Highly unlikely IMHO.

So one can sin in heaven, we just won’t want to?

We could, but are highly unlikely to want to do so deliberately. Nor are we likely to continue doing so, once we realise we are. Imo.

So if we have freewill but would be very unlikely to sin, why didn’t God just make us humans like that in the first place? Why go through the rigamarole of the earthly existence?

I asked you about being a slave or robot and you didn’t think it relevant. So in light of this question, again, I’ll ask: would you like to be a robot or slave?

No, I wouldn’t.

The Hallmark of tyranny is forcing obedience. A tyrant like Kim Jung Un or Stalin or any number of people who you know about past or present, has no conscience about forcing people to obey. They may even convince themselves that people are doing it willingly. If you had the power, as a ruler of a kingdom or nation, to force people to obey you, would you take it and do so?

So is your point that God is a benevolent dictator for his earthly subjects but is a tyrant to his subjects in Heaven?

I don’t know how old you are or if you have kids but do you think parents make rules for their children out of love or tyranny?

[Optrader]

@Borgia_dude

@Optrader

@Borgia_dude

@Optrader

@Borgia_dude

@Optrader

@Borgia_dude

@Paul_Thomson

@Borgia_dude

So if we have freewill but would be very unlikely to sin, why didn’t God just make us humans like that in the first place? Why go through the rigamarole of the earthly existence?

We will be like that only because we have learnt by seeing evil done to and by us, and to and by others, that it is a losing and undesirable strategy, and have learnt not to choose it.

Hmm, that doesn’t make sense. Babies that die haven’t learned anything.

They will never suffer any pain or the trials and tribulations of life on Earth either.

So how can these babies learn that sin is an undesirable strategy? That is the reason Paul have for our life here in earth in preparation for Heaven.

We are not islands unto ourselves. The entirety of humanity is under the death penalty for sin. You perceive an injustice that a baby is denied a small handful of decades of life on Earth as if this life is what’s the most important. It isn’t. Why would you assume that a baby that dies would have had a great life? How could you know if any baby might have been born into misery, neglect or abuse?

Hmm, do you apply this argument to abortion?

But I was discussing Paul’s position that life on earth teaches us the perils of sin which leads us to not wanting to sin in heaven.

My point about the babies was that they would not have the chance to learn about any perils of sin if their life was cut short.

Does watching a drunk or drug addict vomit and sleep in a gutter teach you anything?

Yes. Babies haven’t seen that, have they?

Have you considered that maybe the purpose goes beyond the individual baby? Maybe a babies death is for other people to learn something?

[Borgia_dude]

@Optrader

@Borgia_dude

@Optrader

@Borgia_dude

@Optrader

@Borgia_dude

@Paul_Thomson

@Borgia_dude

@Paul_Thomson

@AZslim

If you sin in heaven can you be sent to hell?

If you sin and are unrepentant about it, the sacrifice for sin does not apply to you. But if you repent, it does apply. So, it depends on whether a human being who makes it into heaven would take the belligerently unrepentant route. Highly unlikely IMHO.

So one can sin in heaven, we just won’t want to?

We could, but are highly unlikely to want to do so deliberately. Nor are we likely to continue doing so, once we realise we are. Imo.

So if we have freewill but would be very unlikely to sin, why didn’t God just make us humans like that in the first place? Why go through the rigamarole of the earthly existence?

I asked you about being a slave or robot and you didn’t think it relevant. So in light of this question, again, I’ll ask: would you like to be a robot or slave?

No, I wouldn’t.

The Hallmark of tyranny is forcing obedience. A tyrant like Kim Jung Un or Stalin or any number of people who you know about past or present, has no conscience about forcing people to obey. They may even convince themselves that people are doing it willingly. If you had the power, as a ruler of a kingdom or nation, to force people to obey you, would you take it and do so?

So is your point that God is a benevolent dictator for his earthly subjects but is a tyrant to his subjects in Heaven?

Not at all. Absolutely no one in Heaven got there by force. We will have not only a body, but the same nature that Adam and Eve had in Eden. Two big differences though. First, Satan is out of the picture entirely. He and all his followers are in Hell so there is not going to be any temptations in Heaven and second, all of the redeemed, plus all the angels will know God was right.

Why not just create humans in the model of how we end up in Heaven? No temptations. No Satan.

[Borgia_dude]

@Optrader

@Borgia_dude

@Optrader

@Borgia_dude

@Optrader

@Borgia_dude

@Optrader

@Borgia_dude

@Paul_Thomson

@Borgia_dude

So if we have freewill but would be very unlikely to sin, why didn’t God just make us humans like that in the first place? Why go through the rigamarole of the earthly existence?

We will be like that only because we have learnt by seeing evil done to and by us, and to and by others, that it is a losing and undesirable strategy, and have learnt not to choose it.

Hmm, that doesn’t make sense. Babies that die haven’t learned anything.

They will never suffer any pain or the trials and tribulations of life on Earth either.

So how can these babies learn that sin is an undesirable strategy? That is the reason Paul have for our life here in earth in preparation for Heaven.

We are not islands unto ourselves. The entirety of humanity is under the death penalty for sin. You perceive an injustice that a baby is denied a small handful of decades of life on Earth as if this life is what’s the most important. It isn’t. Why would you assume that a baby that dies would have had a great life? How could you know if any baby might have been born into misery, neglect or abuse?

Hmm, do you apply this argument to abortion?

But I was discussing Paul’s position that life on earth teaches us the perils of sin which leads us to not wanting to sin in heaven.

My point about the babies was that they would not have the chance to learn about any perils of sin if their life was cut short.

Does watching a drunk or drug addict vomit and sleep in a gutter teach you anything?

Yes. Babies haven’t seen that, have they?

Have you considered that maybe the purpose goes beyond the individual baby? Maybe a babies death is for other people to learn something?

Ok. But we are talking about the baby learning about the perils of sin. If they die at 6 weeks, 6 months, 18 months or even 24 months…how would they have learned the perils of sin?

[Paul_Thomson]

Maybe, after their death they get to watch you and me live our lives, and to watch the abortionists that killed them live their lives, and godly people living their lives. Do you think they would learn anything about the differences between living Jesus’s way and living selfishly from that?

[Borgia_dude]

@Paul_Thomson

Maybe, after their death they get to watch you and me live our lives, and to watch the abortionists that killed them live their lives, and godly people living their lives. Do you think they would learn anything about the differences between living Jesus’s way and living selfishly from that?

Sure. Why not just create the movies and show them to every human and we all forgo earth and just live in Heaven?

That way even more people end up in Heaven which is a goal, right? To save as many as possible?

[Paul_Thomson]

@Borgia_dude

Sure. Why not just create the movies and show them to every human and we all forgo earth and just live in Heaven?

That way even more people end up in Heaven which is a goal, right? To save as many as possible?

Showing movies? Really? You think kids who haven’t seen murder and rape are turned OFF those by watching movies of those things. Really?

And you really do believe you could play God better than God, don’t you?

[Borgia_dude]

@Paul_Thomson

@Borgia_dude

Sure. Why not just create the movies and show them to every human and we all forgo earth and just live in Heaven?

That way even more people end up in Heaven which is a goal, right? To save as many as possible?

Showing movies? Really? You think kids who haven’t seen murder and rape are turned OFF those by watching movies of those things. Really?

Movies as in actual movies of actual events. You are the one who proposed babies could watch humans and learn from our mistakes. Now you’re saying they can’t?

How would a baby process that information?

And you really do believe you could play God better than God, don’t you?

[AZslim]

@Borgia_dude

@Paul_Thomson

Maybe, after their death they get to watch you and me live our lives, and to watch the abortionists that killed them live their lives, and godly people living their lives. Do you think they would learn anything about the differences between living Jesus’s way and living selfishly from that?

Sure. Why not just create the movies and show them to every human and we all forgo earth and just live in Heaven?

That way even more people end up in Heaven which is a goal, right? To save as many as possible?

Or, He could just poof the knowledge into our heads and let everybody in.

What kind of God creates heaven, throws out vague information on it, deliberately creates evil to tempt us knowing full well over half of His children will not be allowed in and be tortured for eternity?

He seems like a bit of a jerk to me.

[Paul_Thomson]

@Paul_Thomson

Maybe, after their death they get to watch you and me live our lives, and to watch the abortionists that killed them live their lives, and godly people living their lives. Do you think they would learn anything about the differences between living Jesus’s way and living selfishly from that?

@Borgia_dude

Movies as in actual movies of actual events. You are the one who proposed babies could watch humans and learn from our mistakes. Now you’re saying they can’t?

Why would they watch movies of actual events when they could watch actual events? Watching your mother who aborted you deal with the fallout in real time is far more likely to inform your later attitudes than watching a movie you are told is a documentary. In fact, if God showed you a documentary, you would most likely accuse him of presenting propaganda to manipulate you and still find objections to submitting your will to his wisdom concerning sin.

Also, I don’t think growth and learning stop at physical death

[AlexMcAlpine]

@Paul_Thomson

More sense to you, with an IQ of 0.1 on God’s scale. You sound like a four year old complaining to his parent, "It’s not fair that I don’t get a turn driving the car to school. "

Or, "Mom, you’re cooking that ,turkey wrong. Let me tell you how to do it. "

Perhaps he’s complaining about thousands of innocent women raped every day, thousands of innocent kids kidnapped and sold into sex slavery…

By men who could easily be stopped by God (if he existed and cared) showing himself and putting the “holy spirit” into them - which is the only way people can be turned to God. If God doesn’t do that, they stay evil.

So God is responsible for all evil (as opposed to ‘good’ and ‘bad’) in the world.

[Paul_Thomson]

@AlexMcAlpine

Perhaps he’s complaining about thousands of innocent women raped every day, thousands of innocent kids kidnapped and sold into sex slavery…

By men who could easily be stopped by God (if he existed and cared) showing himself and putting the “holy spirit” into them - which is the only way people can be turned to God. If God doesn’t do that, they stay evil.

So God is responsible for all evil (as opposed to ‘good’ and ‘bad’) in the world

That displays very simplistic linear thinking. God, in creating the possibility of learning love created the potential for evil. Just like the man who invented the first computer, created the possibility of a dark web. By your reckoning, the inventor of the computer is culpable for all the abusive uses to which his invention has been put. That is not a reasonable stance to take.

Before God created the possibility of men devising evil, one of the comm-unity of the Godhead committed to sacrificing Himself to provide a perpetual pathway to forgiveness with justice. Any evil that remains un-healed at any time, is not His fault, but the fault of those humans who have not availed themselves of the pathway provided.

[Optrader]

@Borgia_dude

@Optrader

@Borgia_dude

@Optrader

@Borgia_dude

@Optrader

@Borgia_dude

@Paul_Thomson

@Borgia_dude

@Paul_Thomson

@AZslim

If you sin in heaven can you be sent to hell?

If you sin and are unrepentant about it, the sacrifice for sin does not apply to you. But if you repent, it does apply. So, it depends on whether a human being who makes it into heaven would take the belligerently unrepentant route. Highly unlikely IMHO.

So one can sin in heaven, we just won’t want to?

We could, but are highly unlikely to want to do so deliberately. Nor are we likely to continue doing so, once we realise we are. Imo.

So if we have freewill but would be very unlikely to sin, why didn’t God just make us humans like that in the first place? Why go through the rigamarole of the earthly existence?

I asked you about being a slave or robot and you didn’t think it relevant. So in light of this question, again, I’ll ask: would you like to be a robot or slave?

No, I wouldn’t.

The Hallmark of tyranny is forcing obedience. A tyrant like Kim Jung Un or Stalin or any number of people who you know about past or present, has no conscience about forcing people to obey. They may even convince themselves that people are doing it willingly. If you had the power, as a ruler of a kingdom or nation, to force people to obey you, would you take it and do so?

So is your point that God is a benevolent dictator for his earthly subjects but is a tyrant to his subjects in Heaven?

Not at all. Absolutely no one in Heaven got there by force. We will have not only a body, but the same nature that Adam and Eve had in Eden. Two big differences though. First, Satan is out of the picture entirely. He and all his followers are in Hell so there is not going to be any temptations in Heaven and second, all of the redeemed, plus all the angels will know God was right.

Why not just create humans in the model of how we end up in Heaven? No temptations. No Satan.

That’s exactly what God did with Adam and Eve, created them how we end up in Heaven. But human beings aren’t God’s only creation. He created the angels first.

When Lucifer rebelled, he had managed to persuade 1/3 of the angels to join his rebellion. Ultimately they were cast down to earth.

Why didn’t God destroy them instead? Because Lucifer believed that he should rule. That obedience to God could be cast aside. That he could decide for himself (and his followers) what was best. How do you think the remaining 2/3 of the angels would have reacted if God had destroyed Lucifer and his followers? Do you think they might have some fear of God or lingering doubts about what Lucifer had been saying? Could Lucifer have been right? Is God really just a tyrant forcing worship upon us? How does God answer these questions and remove doubt without using force, thus proving the accusation?

He’s done so by allowing the results of self rule to play out on Earth. Every misery of man has been because like Lucifer, Adam and Eve chose self rule over obedience to God. They literally had everything. Their only job was tending Eden. They wanted for nothing and had nothing to fear. God is trying to restore what was lost in Eden, but that must be our choice as individuals because we see the results of man’s rule, not because God created robots unable to think. As you admitted, you wouldn’t like being a robot, and unlike earthly rulers, God doesn’t want a kingdom of robots either. He wants to be with people who chose freely to be with him. Anyone who doesn’t want him is free to make that choice too.

I can’t help that you find the destination of unbelievers offensive. I wonder why you do so. Seems to me if you don’t believe then you have nothing to worry about and can just ignore believers and think us nuts. But Jesus said that will not be the case because Satan is the father of all unbelievers and Satan hates Christ. Therefore, Satan will hate Christ’s creation (man) and do everything in his power to destroy and deceive us and get us to reject Christ. Sadly, he’s been very effective in his mission. Christians are not just ignored or ridiculed, but hated, and many have faced outright persecution unto death. That time is going to end soon…

[Optrader]

@Borgia_dude

@Optrader

@Borgia_dude

@Optrader

@Borgia_dude

@Optrader

@Borgia_dude

@Optrader

@Borgia_dude

@Paul_Thomson

@Borgia_dude

So if we have freewill but would be very unlikely to sin, why didn’t God just make us humans like that in the first place? Why go through the rigamarole of the earthly existence?

We will be like that only because we have learnt by seeing evil done to and by us, and to and by others, that it is a losing and undesirable strategy, and have learnt not to choose it.

Hmm, that doesn’t make sense. Babies that die haven’t learned anything.

They will never suffer any pain or the trials and tribulations of life on Earth either.

So how can these babies learn that sin is an undesirable strategy? That is the reason Paul have for our life here in earth in preparation for Heaven.

We are not islands unto ourselves. The entirety of humanity is under the death penalty for sin. You perceive an injustice that a baby is denied a small handful of decades of life on Earth as if this life is what’s the most important. It isn’t. Why would you assume that a baby that dies would have had a great life? How could you know if any baby might have been born into misery, neglect or abuse?

Hmm, do you apply this argument to abortion?

But I was discussing Paul’s position that life on earth teaches us the perils of sin which leads us to not wanting to sin in heaven.

My point about the babies was that they would not have the chance to learn about any perils of sin if their life was cut short.

Does watching a drunk or drug addict vomit and sleep in a gutter teach you anything?

Yes. Babies haven’t seen that, have they?

Have you considered that maybe the purpose goes beyond the individual baby? Maybe a babies death is for other people to learn something?

Ok. But we are talking about the baby learning about the perils of sin. If they die at 6 weeks, 6 months, 18 months or even 24 months…how would they have learned the perils of sin?

How familiar are you with the story of King David? His life exemplifies the consequences of the worst of sins, yet he was still beloved of God and was redeemed. Read about his family, including the death of his baby who was the result of his murder and subsequent adulterous relationship with Bathsheba. See if you learn anything…