Who cares about investigations?

[Optrader]

@TheDoctorIsIn

@Optrader

I’m not backpedaling at all. I would like to know exactly what Trump and especially the Russians did to interfere with our election. No votes were changed, no machines were hacked. What did the collusion consist of?

This is what “backpedaling” is. You’re desperately trying to change the subject of the conversation, because you found yourself in a conversational cul-de-sac.

Actually I started this thread asking an entirely different question. As frequently happens, it went off in a different direction. Collusion/interference has been the subject of many threads. As with every other issue, opinions are split down partisan lines. Each side believes their side is right and the other side is wrong, it’s the other sides candidates that have committed crimes and need to be constantly investigated. I thought my OP was pretty simple. So what? Does a candidate being under investigation likely change their support base? What crimes would a candidate have to commit, or be accused of to lose support or be investigated?

It seems to me that today accusations of wrong doing begin against candidates as soon as they announce. Scandals and conspiracies emerge especially as the candidates get closer to being elected. We don’t care about their affairs. Lying and cheating are considered normal. Accusations and counter accusations abound. I don’t think it much matters anymore who’s done what or who is accused of what. The voters will support their side regardless. We all know this happens but we play the game along with our side pretending to believe and be outraged by their corruption…

[adroit]

@zantax

@PeterGriffin

Ukraine did not interfere. That is 100% Grade A Russian propaganda with zero evidence and is a known Russian conspiracy theory.

If people want to know what Russian misinformation campaigns lead to, well look that the post I’m responding to. That poster is repeat long Russian propaganda as if it were factual.

That also applies to anyone who is Server Curious, Crowdstrike, all the wrong crap that is passed off as real in right wing circles.

No evidence? What’s this?

from https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/12/world/europe/ukraine-paul-manafort.html

The Kiev District Administrative Court, in a statement issued Wednesday, said that Artem Sytnik, the head of the National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine, the agency that had released information about the payments, had violated the law. The court’s statement said this violation “resulted in meddling in the electoral process of the United States in 2016 and damaged the national interests of Ukraine.”

Old news, that’s what that is:

The Sixth Administrative Court of Appeals has canceled a court ruling that found that independent lawmaker Sergii Leshchenko and Artem Sytnyk, head of the National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine, unlawfully interfered in the 2016 U.S. presidential election.

Court cancels earlier ruling that Ukrainian officials interfered in US election

[fallenturtle]

@Optrader

@fallenturtle

@Optrader

@fallenturtle

@Optrader

@fallenturtle

@Optrader

Assume that the Bidens are absolutely innocent of any corruption or impropriety. If Trump called for an investigation, when the Bidens innocence came out it would cause a huge backlash. Biden supporters and other Democrat supporters would be outraged and Bidens supporters would double down.

History has shown that even when people on the left are cleared of wrong doings those on the right don’t accept it and start coming up with conspiracy theories on the deep state and other corruption as reasons to by the clearing was invalid.

History has shown that both sides will deny or ignore transgressions done by members of own their side while screaming bloody murder when the other side does it. So what does Trump gain politically from Biden being investigated?

It makes on the fence voters question Biden’s character/wonder if he’s corrupt. Usually, though frankly Trump seems to be proving otherwise, accusations, even if untrue, tarnish a candidate and can hurt their electability.

For example, I was leaning towards supporting Warren, but then this whole he-said/he-didn’t-say thing came out with Sanders and honestly I don’t know who to believe, but its certainly made me question my support of her even if no actual proof has surfaced.

While the facts do play a part, the appearance of wrong-doing regardless of whether or not it actually happened, hurts a candidate.

In my reading of your posts over time, and in the back and forths you and I have had, I feel pretty confident in saying that you are NOT going to vote for Trump under any circumstances. I suspect you are a never Trumper and will cast your vote for whoever gets the Democrat nomination, even if it ends up not being your first choice. So will the vast majority of Democrats. Just as the vast majority of Republicans will vote for Trump whether they like him or not. Trump has such an ego, I don’t think he believes any of the Dem candidates can beat him, so he doesn’t care which Dem wins the primary. The constant harassment and investigations by the Democrats hasn’t diminished his support at all. The battle is and has been for the independents and undecideds.

You are correct, I am a never Trumper… in fact I feel fairly secure in saying I’m a “never conservativer” as well.

@Optrader

You actually believe a person who is undecided is going to be swayed by the fact that Joe Biden is/was under investigation by the Ukraniane government?

I’m going to say in general that an undecided voter is going to be swayed against a candidate who is under investigation… for this election in particular I think its a little muddier since Trump has also been under several investigations.

Do you think people were swayed against voting for Clinton because of the investigations she was under?

Someone said years ago “It’s the economy stupid!” People first look at their own lives and determine if they are better off then under the last administration. And then how would a new persons policies affect their future compared to now. Did any of the scandals or investigations of the Clintons diminish Bills popularity? Did they keep Hillary from her supporters? No. They both are still treated like rock stars. I asked what crime would a candidate have to be investigated for or accused of to keep supporters from voting for them. So far, no one on either side has offered an answer.

While B. Clinton did get a second term, they are certainly not rock stars anymore. Most of their support is from the baby boomers. Opinions of him are certainly colored by the younger generation in light of the #metoo era. H. Clinton’s lack of rockstar status was underlined by her loss to Trump… the support she had was really lukewarm and in general she is seen as a neo-liberal/centrist who have lost a lot of support as the Democratic party has moved more left.

[tnt]

He didn’t ask for an investigation. He asked for the announcement of an investigation.

[Optrader]

@fallenturtle

@Optrader

@fallenturtle

@Optrader

@fallenturtle

@Optrader

@fallenturtle

@Optrader

Assume that the Bidens are absolutely innocent of any corruption or impropriety. If Trump called for an investigation, when the Bidens innocence came out it would cause a huge backlash. Biden supporters and other Democrat supporters would be outraged and Bidens supporters would double down.

History has shown that even when people on the left are cleared of wrong doings those on the right don’t accept it and start coming up with conspiracy theories on the deep state and other corruption as reasons to by the clearing was invalid.

History has shown that both sides will deny or ignore transgressions done by members of own their side while screaming bloody murder when the other side does it. So what does Trump gain politically from Biden being investigated?

It makes on the fence voters question Biden’s character/wonder if he’s corrupt. Usually, though frankly Trump seems to be proving otherwise, accusations, even if untrue, tarnish a candidate and can hurt their electability.

For example, I was leaning towards supporting Warren, but then this whole he-said/he-didn’t-say thing came out with Sanders and honestly I don’t know who to believe, but its certainly made me question my support of her even if no actual proof has surfaced.

While the facts do play a part, the appearance of wrong-doing regardless of whether or not it actually happened, hurts a candidate.

In my reading of your posts over time, and in the back and forths you and I have had, I feel pretty confident in saying that you are NOT going to vote for Trump under any circumstances. I suspect you are a never Trumper and will cast your vote for whoever gets the Democrat nomination, even if it ends up not being your first choice. So will the vast majority of Democrats. Just as the vast majority of Republicans will vote for Trump whether they like him or not. Trump has such an ego, I don’t think he believes any of the Dem candidates can beat him, so he doesn’t care which Dem wins the primary. The constant harassment and investigations by the Democrats hasn’t diminished his support at all. The battle is and has been for the independents and undecideds.

You are correct, I am a never Trumper… in fact I feel fairly secure in saying I’m a “never conservativer” as well.

@Optrader

You actually believe a person who is undecided is going to be swayed by the fact that Joe Biden is/was under investigation by the Ukraniane government?

I’m going to say in general that an undecided voter is going to be swayed against a candidate who is under investigation… for this election in particular I think its a little muddier since Trump has also been under several investigations.

Do you think people were swayed against voting for Clinton because of the investigations she was under?

Someone said years ago “It’s the economy stupid!” People first look at their own lives and determine if they are better off then under the last administration. And then how would a new persons policies affect their future compared to now. Did any of the scandals or investigations of the Clintons diminish Bills popularity? Did they keep Hillary from her supporters? No. They both are still treated like rock stars. I asked what crime would a candidate have to be investigated for or accused of to keep supporters from voting for them. So far, no one on either side has offered an answer.

While B. Clinton did get a second term, they are certainly not rock stars anymore. Most of their support is from the baby boomers. Opinions of him are certainly colored by the younger generation in light of the #metoo era. H. Clinton’s lack of rockstar status was underlined by her loss to Trump… the support she had was really lukewarm and in general she is seen as a neo-liberal/centrist who have lost a lot of support as the Democratic party has moved more left.

She is fading, but it’s only been 3 years since her loss. But my point is that the country has become so polarized and partisan that it would take a hell of a lot more than an investigation by a foreign government, especially without specific, serious allegations for an otherwise Biden supporter (or Trump hater) to not vote for Biden.

[fallenturtle]

@Optrader

@fallenturtle

@Optrader

@fallenturtle

@Optrader

@fallenturtle

@Optrader

@fallenturtle

@Optrader

Assume that the Bidens are absolutely innocent of any corruption or impropriety. If Trump called for an investigation, when the Bidens innocence came out it would cause a huge backlash. Biden supporters and other Democrat supporters would be outraged and Bidens supporters would double down.

History has shown that even when people on the left are cleared of wrong doings those on the right don’t accept it and start coming up with conspiracy theories on the deep state and other corruption as reasons to by the clearing was invalid.

History has shown that both sides will deny or ignore transgressions done by members of own their side while screaming bloody murder when the other side does it. So what does Trump gain politically from Biden being investigated?

It makes on the fence voters question Biden’s character/wonder if he’s corrupt. Usually, though frankly Trump seems to be proving otherwise, accusations, even if untrue, tarnish a candidate and can hurt their electability.

For example, I was leaning towards supporting Warren, but then this whole he-said/he-didn’t-say thing came out with Sanders and honestly I don’t know who to believe, but its certainly made me question my support of her even if no actual proof has surfaced.

While the facts do play a part, the appearance of wrong-doing regardless of whether or not it actually happened, hurts a candidate.

In my reading of your posts over time, and in the back and forths you and I have had, I feel pretty confident in saying that you are NOT going to vote for Trump under any circumstances. I suspect you are a never Trumper and will cast your vote for whoever gets the Democrat nomination, even if it ends up not being your first choice. So will the vast majority of Democrats. Just as the vast majority of Republicans will vote for Trump whether they like him or not. Trump has such an ego, I don’t think he believes any of the Dem candidates can beat him, so he doesn’t care which Dem wins the primary. The constant harassment and investigations by the Democrats hasn’t diminished his support at all. The battle is and has been for the independents and undecideds.

You are correct, I am a never Trumper… in fact I feel fairly secure in saying I’m a “never conservativer” as well.

@Optrader

You actually believe a person who is undecided is going to be swayed by the fact that Joe Biden is/was under investigation by the Ukraniane government?

I’m going to say in general that an undecided voter is going to be swayed against a candidate who is under investigation… for this election in particular I think its a little muddier since Trump has also been under several investigations.

Do you think people were swayed against voting for Clinton because of the investigations she was under?

Someone said years ago “It’s the economy stupid!” People first look at their own lives and determine if they are better off then under the last administration. And then how would a new persons policies affect their future compared to now. Did any of the scandals or investigations of the Clintons diminish Bills popularity? Did they keep Hillary from her supporters? No. They both are still treated like rock stars. I asked what crime would a candidate have to be investigated for or accused of to keep supporters from voting for them. So far, no one on either side has offered an answer.

While B. Clinton did get a second term, they are certainly not rock stars anymore. Most of their support is from the baby boomers. Opinions of him are certainly colored by the younger generation in light of the #metoo era. H. Clinton’s lack of rockstar status was underlined by her loss to Trump… the support she had was really lukewarm and in general she is seen as a neo-liberal/centrist who have lost a lot of support as the Democratic party has moved more left.

She is fading, but it’s only been 3 years since her loss. But my point is that the country has become so polarized and partisan that it would take a hell of a lot more than an investigation by a foreign government, especially without specific, serious allegations for an otherwise Biden supporter (or Trump hater) to not vote for Biden.

Sure, but I’m talking fence sitters… I would consider a fence sitter to be a Biden supporter.

[Optrader]

@fallenturtle

@Optrader

@fallenturtle

@Optrader

@fallenturtle

@Optrader

@fallenturtle

@Optrader

@fallenturtle

@Optrader

Assume that the Bidens are absolutely innocent of any corruption or impropriety. If Trump called for an investigation, when the Bidens innocence came out it would cause a huge backlash. Biden supporters and other Democrat supporters would be outraged and Bidens supporters would double down.

History has shown that even when people on the left are cleared of wrong doings those on the right don’t accept it and start coming up with conspiracy theories on the deep state and other corruption as reasons to by the clearing was invalid.

History has shown that both sides will deny or ignore transgressions done by members of own their side while screaming bloody murder when the other side does it. So what does Trump gain politically from Biden being investigated?

It makes on the fence voters question Biden’s character/wonder if he’s corrupt. Usually, though frankly Trump seems to be proving otherwise, accusations, even if untrue, tarnish a candidate and can hurt their electability.

For example, I was leaning towards supporting Warren, but then this whole he-said/he-didn’t-say thing came out with Sanders and honestly I don’t know who to believe, but its certainly made me question my support of her even if no actual proof has surfaced.

While the facts do play a part, the appearance of wrong-doing regardless of whether or not it actually happened, hurts a candidate.

In my reading of your posts over time, and in the back and forths you and I have had, I feel pretty confident in saying that you are NOT going to vote for Trump under any circumstances. I suspect you are a never Trumper and will cast your vote for whoever gets the Democrat nomination, even if it ends up not being your first choice. So will the vast majority of Democrats. Just as the vast majority of Republicans will vote for Trump whether they like him or not. Trump has such an ego, I don’t think he believes any of the Dem candidates can beat him, so he doesn’t care which Dem wins the primary. The constant harassment and investigations by the Democrats hasn’t diminished his support at all. The battle is and has been for the independents and undecideds.

You are correct, I am a never Trumper… in fact I feel fairly secure in saying I’m a “never conservativer” as well.

@Optrader

You actually believe a person who is undecided is going to be swayed by the fact that Joe Biden is/was under investigation by the Ukraniane government?

I’m going to say in general that an undecided voter is going to be swayed against a candidate who is under investigation… for this election in particular I think its a little muddier since Trump has also been under several investigations.

Do you think people were swayed against voting for Clinton because of the investigations she was under?

Someone said years ago “It’s the economy stupid!” People first look at their own lives and determine if they are better off then under the last administration. And then how would a new persons policies affect their future compared to now. Did any of the scandals or investigations of the Clintons diminish Bills popularity? Did they keep Hillary from her supporters? No. They both are still treated like rock stars. I asked what crime would a candidate have to be investigated for or accused of to keep supporters from voting for them. So far, no one on either side has offered an answer.

While B. Clinton did get a second term, they are certainly not rock stars anymore. Most of their support is from the baby boomers. Opinions of him are certainly colored by the younger generation in light of the #metoo era. H. Clinton’s lack of rockstar status was underlined by her loss to Trump… the support she had was really lukewarm and in general she is seen as a neo-liberal/centrist who have lost a lot of support as the Democratic party has moved more left.

She is fading, but it’s only been 3 years since her loss. But my point is that the country has become so polarized and partisan that it would take a hell of a lot more than an investigation by a foreign government, especially without specific, serious allegations for an otherwise Biden supporter (or Trump hater) to not vote for Biden.

Sure, but I’m talking fence sitters… I would consider a fence sitter to be a Biden supporter.

Perhaps in a primary there are fence sitters, but even there it would be tough to find a candidate that didn’t have some dirt from their past that couldn’t come back and hurt them. Primary candidates usually turn on each other, especially during debates, to gain the nomination. By the time the general election comes, not much new comes out. As you said, the Democrat party has taken a sharp left turn, even since 2016. All of the candidates have taken that turn to gain votes. Whoever emerges will still be much farther left than Trump. Moderates are becoming a thing of the past. I don’t believe Biden would get the nomination, regardless of any investigation. His gaffes alone make people wonder if he’s going senile. He just told people at his rally that he should have a young running mate because he’s an old guy. That’s a stupid thing to tell people- “I may kick off before my term ends!” Nevertheless, should he actually get the nomination, it won’t be any investigation launched against him that will cause his defeat.

[fallenturtle]

Speaking of Biden being senile (onion):

Summary

‘You’re A Piece Of ■■■■ And I Hope Everyone Like You Dies,’ Says Biden To Democratic Voter In Stirring Call For Party Unity

NSFW do to language.

[zantax]

@adroit

@zantax

@PeterGriffin

Ukraine did not interfere. That is 100% Grade A Russian propaganda with zero evidence and is a known Russian conspiracy theory.

If people want to know what Russian misinformation campaigns lead to, well look that the post I’m responding to. That poster is repeat long Russian propaganda as if it were factual.

That also applies to anyone who is Server Curious, Crowdstrike, all the wrong crap that is passed off as real in right wing circles.

No evidence? What’s this?

from https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/12/world/europe/ukraine-paul-manafort.html

The Kiev District Administrative Court, in a statement issued Wednesday, said that Artem Sytnik, the head of the National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine, the agency that had released information about the payments, had violated the law. The court’s statement said this violation “resulted in meddling in the electoral process of the United States in 2016 and damaged the national interests of Ukraine.”

Old news, that’s what that is:

The Sixth Administrative Court of Appeals has canceled a court ruling that found that independent lawmaker Sergii Leshchenko and Artem Sytnyk, head of the National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine, unlawfully interfered in the 2016 U.S. presidential election.

Court cancels earlier ruling that Ukrainian officials interfered in US election

Old? Was it old news at the time Trump was holding up aide and asking for investigations? Might want to compare dates.