We Need To Stop the Shutdown & Go Back to Work

Toll_Collector · 2020-04-30T21:28:07.177Z

Camp:

He is going to clean the subway which I thought they started doing in March.

This is what I’m talking about. Try to figure this out.

Ceasar · 2020-04-30T23:36:04.734Z

H_Arendt:

WildRose:

There is no contradiction, we were never talking about temporary states.

You’re simply weaseling since your argument won’t hold up.

We have never been talking about a permanent state: neither the lockdowns nor self quarantine are permanent. Our entire discussion is about the impact of temporary unpleasant and inconvenient experiences.

Right! Originally it was for 2 weeks, NOT to stop it, to slow it so the hospitals could stay up. They knew it would still go through the population, now it’s 2 weeks, them 2 more, then 2 more, now it’s months! Absurd.

WildRose · 2020-04-30T23:37:38.239Z

Then give us a hard date for the lockdowns to end.

WildRose · 2020-04-30T23:40:40.797Z

Ceasar:

H_Arendt:

WildRose:

There is no contradiction, we were never talking about temporary states.

You’re simply weaseling since your argument won’t hold up.

We have never been talking about a permanent state: neither the lockdowns nor self quarantine are permanent. Our entire discussion is about the impact of temporary unpleasant and inconvenient experiences.

Right! Originally it was for 2 weeks, NOT to stop it, to slow it so the hospitals could stay up. They knew it would still go through the population, now it’s 2 weeks, them 2 more, then 2 more, now it’s months! Absurd.

“It’s only for a couple of weeks.”

“It’s only for a month.”

“It’s just for six weeks”.

“We can’t end the lockdowns till we have ‘mass testing’”.

“We can’t end the lockdowns till we have enough testing for the entire population and a working vaccine”.

“We can’t end the lockdowns until we can test everyone in the work force regularly and quarantine anyone positive for 2-4 weeks, have proven treatments and a proven vaccine”.

“It’s ok folks, it’s just temporary… ”

Are you perhaps seeing a pattern here because I am.

JayJay · 2020-04-30T23:44:18.170Z

Ceasar:

H_Arendt:

WildRose:

There is no contradiction, we were never talking about temporary states.

You’re simply weaseling since your argument won’t hold up.

We have never been talking about a permanent state: neither the lockdowns nor self quarantine are permanent. Our entire discussion is about the impact of temporary unpleasant and inconvenient experiences.

Right! Originally it was for 2 weeks, NOT to stop it, to slow it so the hospitals could stay up. They knew it would still go through the population, now it’s 2 weeks, them 2 more, then 2 more, now it’s months! Absurd.

If you bought the original deadline of two weeks, you have zero clue how pandemics work.

And it’s not “months” except for some of the hardest hit areas like New York City, perhaps.

States are opening up right now…hell even my own state has construction reopening tomorrow and most of the western central part of the state will open up next week.

Unfortunately I live in a hot zone so it’s a few more weeks here.

But if you thought this was going to be over in a couple weeks, you were deluded.

And even the new normal won’t be totally normal. We are not having a V-shaped recovery and we were never going to have a V-shaped recovery.

moonshine · 2020-04-30T23:57:49.284Z

the overwhelming majority of americans support th elockdown.
poll after poll

The Hill – 30 Apr 20

The Memo: The surprising popularity of the Great Lockdown

There is at least one political surprise amid the coronavirus crisis — the Great Lockdown is popular among Americans.People are, of course, hardly thrilled by stay-at-home orders, closed schools an…

WildRose · 2020-05-01T00:00:47.041Z

Then the overwhelming majority of Americans are scared little sheep who have been driven into panic by the media intentionally over a disease that has yet to kill as many people this year as the flu.

Anyone who is so afraid of the Boogyman for no good reason should just buy a drum of Lysol, tape/plastic their doors and windows and plan to stay home for the duration.

Wait till the free money runs out and check those polls again.

gooddad409 · 2020-05-01T00:26:58.682Z

moonshine:

the overwhelming majority of americans support th elockdown.
poll after poll
https://thehill.com/homenews/the-memo/495573-the-memo-the-surprising-popularity-of-the-great-lockdown

Most polls only value would be as toilet paper or bird cage liner.

Ceasar · 2020-05-01T01:40:51.425Z

Auto129:

Their services aren’t needed as much as their cooperation with shelter-in-place procedures is.

Unless they’re willing to temporarily take an essential job. That would be a big help.

No, it would NOT help ANYTHING. The so-called “Non-essential” jobs & services ARE essential. If they don’t come back we will all starve. I consider that essential!

Ceasar · 2020-05-01T01:46:22.383Z

H_Arendt:

Ceasar:

H_Arendt:

Ceasar:

H_Arendt:

Ceasar:

JayJay:

Camp:

You might have missed it.

We achieved the goal.

Time to open.

There is not one medical expert that thinks the time to reopen is the instant cases start to go down.

That’s just asking for a second wave.

AND…they NEVER will…

It will NEVER be time to re-open, EVER to them.

They don’t think economics, they think medical. It will always be the ideal, shut down till there’s not a single case, & it will never happen. This virus will come back year after year from now on. We want them to think medically.

But if we keep this up we will be in a great depression. Perhaps the insane left likes the idea!

Maybe they are so TDS that they think it might get rid of Trump, & if we all have to be in dire poverty for a decade, it’s worth it, along with the massive deaths it will bring, vastly dwarfing anything the virus could ever do.

There is very clear guidance from medical experts as to when to re-open. Why not address that rather than creating fantasy versions of the advice we are receiving?

No need for you to bring Donald Trump into this. The proposals for re-opening have nothing to do with him.

Whatever. The left doesn’t want anyone using Hydroxychloroquine Sulfate, & none of the democrat run states want to end the shutdowns.

But…nothing to do with politics!

Science is based on methods that separate it from politics. On the right, everything flows from pundits who are explicitly political and hostile to science whenever it disagrees with their political goals.

I agree, but the left ignores innovation, investigation, & successes often, & that is exactly them, politics over truth, science, etc. Many times what they call science, is not, it’s politics that go along with their agenda.

If they get their way, the shutdown will last till there’s a depression, & nobody will be allowed to use Hydroxychloroquine Sulfate, creating high death tolls, in both areas, poverty leading to high body counts, & not allowing any innovation in the form of drugs, like Hydroxychloroquine Sulfate, & some of the others that show so much promise.

They even want to censure one of their own for daring to say Hydroxychloroquine Sulfate saved her life!

Instead of broad brush allegations “what they call science is not”… please be specific.

They Hydroxychloroquine Sulfate discussion began with a claim on television by a man who claimed to be a doctor affiliated with Stanford Medical School. It turned out he was lying. Where, subsequent to that, are the peer reviewed studies that show its effectiveness and assess its side effects? The main favorable study did not rise to scientific standards, it barely rose to credibility.

What has happened is that there is a rush on the drug, such that people who were using it, under physician care, to treat diseases for which it is proven and effective, are unable to get prescriptions refilled. That is shameful.

No one is blocking “innovation” – starting on the far right with Alex Jones and Jim Baker and then moving a bit more central – there’s an awful lot of snake oil being sold for profit as cures.

I remember in the AIDS epidemic when AZT was the miracle cure. Given the near to 100% facility rate from HIV infections the push to get AZT out there was far more powerful that the push for Hydroxychloroquine Sulfate. (People on the right won’t remember this because that the time the Republican President was refusing to even say the word “AIDS”.)

Five years later, it turned out AZT was worthless as an HIV/AIDS treatment. Every miracle cure does not have a silver lining.

Thanks for proving my assertions.

JayJay · 2020-05-01T01:48:44.898Z

It’s already killed >60,000 in less than two months…right end of the top band of flu deaths per year…60,000 flu deaths would constitute a bad year…and those deaths are spread out over 6 months, not 2.

And this is WITH lockdowns and social distancing…and given the number of excess deaths in 2020 compared to the five year average is above this 60,000 figure…we are likely undercounting the number of COVID deaths.

And this is WITH two week long hospital stays being the norm for serious patients, compare to 5-7 for the flu.

And this is with all sorts of cardiovascular problems and other organ problems, and blisters feet and dangerous swelling in some kids and strokes happening in younger healthier people…all happening to a greater degree than happen for flu patients in a typical year.

But other than all that. Yeah…it’s just like the flu.

JayJay · 2020-05-01T01:50:23.374Z

Not a one of your assertions was proved true.

You are simply holding fast to your belief without evidence…not even attempting to engage with those who disagree with you.

H_Arendt · 2020-05-01T01:50:45.115Z

WildRose:

Then the overwhelming majority of Americans are scared little sheep who have been driven into panic by the media intentionally over a disease that has yet to kill as many people this year as the flu.

Anyone who is so afraid of the Boogyman for no good reason should just buy a drum of Lysol, tape/plastic their doors and windows and plan to stay home for the duration.

Wait till the free money runs out and check those polls again.

So much contempt for real Americans.

H_Arendt · 2020-05-01T01:52:43.383Z

WildRose:

Then give us a hard date for the lockdowns to end.

Give me a hard date when the rate of infections will decline for fourteen consecutive days.

Unfortunately, real life requires dealing with ambiguity.

H_Arendt · 2020-05-01T01:57:16.017Z

Ceasar:

H_Arendt:

Ceasar:

H_Arendt:

Ceasar:

H_Arendt:

Ceasar:

JayJay:

Camp:

You might have missed it.

We achieved the goal.

Time to open.

There is not one medical expert that thinks the time to reopen is the instant cases start to go down.

That’s just asking for a second wave.

AND…they NEVER will…

It will NEVER be time to re-open, EVER to them.

They don’t think economics, they think medical. It will always be the ideal, shut down till there’s not a single case, & it will never happen. This virus will come back year after year from now on. We want them to think medically.

But if we keep this up we will be in a great depression. Perhaps the insane left likes the idea!

Maybe they are so TDS that they think it might get rid of Trump, & if we all have to be in dire poverty for a decade, it’s worth it, along with the massive deaths it will bring, vastly dwarfing anything the virus could ever do.

There is very clear guidance from medical experts as to when to re-open. Why not address that rather than creating fantasy versions of the advice we are receiving?

No need for you to bring Donald Trump into this. The proposals for re-opening have nothing to do with him.

Whatever. The left doesn’t want anyone using Hydroxychloroquine Sulfate, & none of the democrat run states want to end the shutdowns.

But…nothing to do with politics!

Science is based on methods that separate it from politics. On the right, everything flows from pundits who are explicitly political and hostile to science whenever it disagrees with their political goals.

I agree, but the left ignores innovation, investigation, & successes often, & that is exactly them, politics over truth, science, etc. Many times what they call science, is not, it’s politics that go along with their agenda.

If they get their way, the shutdown will last till there’s a depression, & nobody will be allowed to use Hydroxychloroquine Sulfate, creating high death tolls, in both areas, poverty leading to high body counts, & not allowing any innovation in the form of drugs, like Hydroxychloroquine Sulfate, & some of the others that show so much promise.

They even want to censure one of their own for daring to say Hydroxychloroquine Sulfate saved her life!

Instead of broad brush allegations “what they call science is not”… please be specific.

They Hydroxychloroquine Sulfate discussion began with a claim on television by a man who claimed to be a doctor affiliated with Stanford Medical School. It turned out he was lying. Where, subsequent to that, are the peer reviewed studies that show its effectiveness and assess its side effects? The main favorable study did not rise to scientific standards, it barely rose to credibility.

What has happened is that there is a rush on the drug, such that people who were using it, under physician care, to treat diseases for which it is proven and effective, are unable to get prescriptions refilled. That is shameful.

No one is blocking “innovation” – starting on the far right with Alex Jones and Jim Baker and then moving a bit more central – there’s an awful lot of snake oil being sold for profit as cures.

I remember in the AIDS epidemic when AZT was the miracle cure. Given the near to 100% facility rate from HIV infections the push to get AZT out there was far more powerful that the push for Hydroxychloroquine Sulfate. (People on the right won’t remember this because that the time the Republican President was refusing to even say the word “AIDS”.)

Five years later, it turned out AZT was worthless as an HIV/AIDS treatment. Every miracle cure does not have a silver lining.

Thanks for proving my assertions.

Actually I didn’t prove anything of what you asserted. For one thing, I was talking about using the scientific method to make judgments and the scientific method advances through disproof, not proof. If you are going to judge what is or is not science, your credibility might depend on demonstrating an understanding of that fundamental.

JayJay · 2020-05-01T01:58:07.248Z

You just made up the last bits.

JayJay · 2020-05-01T02:00:20.192Z

H_Arendt:

Ceasar:

H_Arendt:

Ceasar:

H_Arendt:

Ceasar:

H_Arendt:

Ceasar:

JayJay:

Camp:

You might have missed it.

We achieved the goal.

Time to open.

There is not one medical expert that thinks the time to reopen is the instant cases start to go down.

That’s just asking for a second wave.

AND…they NEVER will…

It will NEVER be time to re-open, EVER to them.

They don’t think economics, they think medical. It will always be the ideal, shut down till there’s not a single case, & it will never happen. This virus will come back year after year from now on. We want them to think medically.

But if we keep this up we will be in a great depression. Perhaps the insane left likes the idea!

Maybe they are so TDS that they think it might get rid of Trump, & if we all have to be in dire poverty for a decade, it’s worth it, along with the massive deaths it will bring, vastly dwarfing anything the virus could ever do.

There is very clear guidance from medical experts as to when to re-open. Why not address that rather than creating fantasy versions of the advice we are receiving?

No need for you to bring Donald Trump into this. The proposals for re-opening have nothing to do with him.

Whatever. The left doesn’t want anyone using Hydroxychloroquine Sulfate, & none of the democrat run states want to end the shutdowns.

But…nothing to do with politics!

Science is based on methods that separate it from politics. On the right, everything flows from pundits who are explicitly political and hostile to science whenever it disagrees with their political goals.

I agree, but the left ignores innovation, investigation, & successes often, & that is exactly them, politics over truth, science, etc. Many times what they call science, is not, it’s politics that go along with their agenda.

If they get their way, the shutdown will last till there’s a depression, & nobody will be allowed to use Hydroxychloroquine Sulfate, creating high death tolls, in both areas, poverty leading to high body counts, & not allowing any innovation in the form of drugs, like Hydroxychloroquine Sulfate, & some of the others that show so much promise.

They even want to censure one of their own for daring to say Hydroxychloroquine Sulfate saved her life!

Instead of broad brush allegations “what they call science is not”… please be specific.

They Hydroxychloroquine Sulfate discussion began with a claim on television by a man who claimed to be a doctor affiliated with Stanford Medical School. It turned out he was lying. Where, subsequent to that, are the peer reviewed studies that show its effectiveness and assess its side effects? The main favorable study did not rise to scientific standards, it barely rose to credibility.

What has happened is that there is a rush on the drug, such that people who were using it, under physician care, to treat diseases for which it is proven and effective, are unable to get prescriptions refilled. That is shameful.

No one is blocking “innovation” – starting on the far right with Alex Jones and Jim Baker and then moving a bit more central – there’s an awful lot of snake oil being sold for profit as cures.

I remember in the AIDS epidemic when AZT was the miracle cure. Given the near to 100% facility rate from HIV infections the push to get AZT out there was far more powerful that the push for Hydroxychloroquine Sulfate. (People on the right won’t remember this because that the time the Republican President was refusing to even say the word “AIDS”.)

Five years later, it turned out AZT was worthless as an HIV/AIDS treatment. Every miracle cure does not have a silver lining.

Thanks for proving my assertions.

Actually I didn’t prove anything of what you asserted. For one thing, I was talking about using the scientific method to make judgments and the scientific method advances through disproof, not proof. If you are going to judge what is or is not science, your credibility might depend on demonstrating an understanding of that fundamental.

What?

The way to test a hypothesis is to try and prove it FALSE?

Say it isn’t so!

Imagine if people did that instead of just uncritically accepted things from pundits or newspapers or other media because what was being said tickled their ears!

WildRose · 2020-05-01T02:59:03.284Z

The flu is a disease we’re prepared to fight supposedly but when the numbers are tallied we’ll have lost upwards of 140,000-160,000 to it in two years.

The numbers or CCPV? We’ll finish probably around the same 80k or less.

The Flu kills far more young and healthy people than CCPV.

How many children died from flu during the 2017-2018 season?

As of April 19, 2019, a total of 186 pediatric deaths had been reported to CDC during the 2017-2018 season. This number exceeds the previously highest number of flu-associated deaths in children reported during a regular flu season (171 during the 2012-2013 season). Approximately 80% of these deaths occurred in children who had not received a flu vaccination this season. For the most recent data and more information visit FluView: Influenza-Associated Pediatric Mortality.

Since flu-associated deaths in children became a nationally notifiable condition in 2004, the total number of flu-associated deaths among children during one season has ranged from 37 (during the 2011-2012 season) to 186 (during the 2017-18 season, as of April 19, 2019); this excludes the 2009 pandemic, when 358 pediatric deaths from April 15, 2009 through October 2, 2010 were reported to CDC.

How many people were hospitalized from flu during the 2017-2018 season?

From October 1, 2017 through April 28, 2018, 30,453 laboratory-confirmed influenza-related hospitalizations were reported through the Influenza Hospitalization Surveillance Network (FluSurv-NET), which covers approximately 9% of the U.S. population. People 65 years and older accounted for approximately 58% of reported influenza-associated hospitalizations. Overall hospitalization rates (all ages) during 2017-2018 were the highest ever recorded in this surveillance system, breaking the previously recorded high recorded during 2014-2015; a high severity H3N2-predominant season when CDC estimates that hospitalizations captured through FluSurv-NET translated into a total of 710,000 flu hospitalizations that seasons. (For more information on these estimates, see CDC’s Disease Burden of Influenza page.) Estimates on the total number of flu-related hospitalizations during 2017-2018 will be available in fall 2018.

Yet we have never blown the damned economy up over “The Flu” even though in 1918 it killed 665,000 of 105,000,000 Americans.

H_Arendt · 2020-05-01T12:24:03.964Z

JayJay:

H_Arendt:

Ceasar:

H_Arendt:

Ceasar:

H_Arendt:

Ceasar:

H_Arendt:

Ceasar:

JayJay:

Camp:

You might have missed it.

We achieved the goal.

Time to open.

There is not one medical expert that thinks the time to reopen is the instant cases start to go down.

That’s just asking for a second wave.

AND…they NEVER will…

It will NEVER be time to re-open, EVER to them.

They don’t think economics, they think medical. It will always be the ideal, shut down till there’s not a single case, & it will never happen. This virus will come back year after year from now on. We want them to think medically.

But if we keep this up we will be in a great depression. Perhaps the insane left likes the idea!

Maybe they are so TDS that they think it might get rid of Trump, & if we all have to be in dire poverty for a decade, it’s worth it, along with the massive deaths it will bring, vastly dwarfing anything the virus could ever do.

There is very clear guidance from medical experts as to when to re-open. Why not address that rather than creating fantasy versions of the advice we are receiving?

No need for you to bring Donald Trump into this. The proposals for re-opening have nothing to do with him.

Whatever. The left doesn’t want anyone using Hydroxychloroquine Sulfate, & none of the democrat run states want to end the shutdowns.

But…nothing to do with politics!

Science is based on methods that separate it from politics. On the right, everything flows from pundits who are explicitly political and hostile to science whenever it disagrees with their political goals.

I agree, but the left ignores innovation, investigation, & successes often, & that is exactly them, politics over truth, science, etc. Many times what they call science, is not, it’s politics that go along with their agenda.

If they get their way, the shutdown will last till there’s a depression, & nobody will be allowed to use Hydroxychloroquine Sulfate, creating high death tolls, in both areas, poverty leading to high body counts, & not allowing any innovation in the form of drugs, like Hydroxychloroquine Sulfate, & some of the others that show so much promise.

They even want to censure one of their own for daring to say Hydroxychloroquine Sulfate saved her life!

Instead of broad brush allegations “what they call science is not”… please be specific.

They Hydroxychloroquine Sulfate discussion began with a claim on television by a man who claimed to be a doctor affiliated with Stanford Medical School. It turned out he was lying. Where, subsequent to that, are the peer reviewed studies that show its effectiveness and assess its side effects? The main favorable study did not rise to scientific standards, it barely rose to credibility.

What has happened is that there is a rush on the drug, such that people who were using it, under physician care, to treat diseases for which it is proven and effective, are unable to get prescriptions refilled. That is shameful.

No one is blocking “innovation” – starting on the far right with Alex Jones and Jim Baker and then moving a bit more central – there’s an awful lot of snake oil being sold for profit as cures.

I remember in the AIDS epidemic when AZT was the miracle cure. Given the near to 100% facility rate from HIV infections the push to get AZT out there was far more powerful that the push for Hydroxychloroquine Sulfate. (People on the right won’t remember this because that the time the Republican President was refusing to even say the word “AIDS”.)

Five years later, it turned out AZT was worthless as an HIV/AIDS treatment. Every miracle cure does not have a silver lining.

Thanks for proving my assertions.

Actually I didn’t prove anything of what you asserted. For one thing, I was talking about using the scientific method to make judgments and the scientific method advances through disproof, not proof. If you are going to judge what is or is not science, your credibility might depend on demonstrating an understanding of that fundamental.

What?

The way to test a hypothesis is to try and prove it FALSE?

Say it isn’t so!

Imagine if people did that instead of just uncritically accepted things from pundits or newspapers or other media because what was being said tickled their ears!

Even better, imagine if people understood how science works and so could evaluate scientific knowledge with some degree of understanding!

JayJay · 2020-05-01T14:10:24.170Z

You mean it doesn’t work like this?

“I was really sick. I took hydrochloroquine. I felt completely fine the next day. Therefore yay! Hydrochloroquine works!”

Post hoc ergo proper hoc isn’t a fallacy?