Do you consider also the words of Paul and if so, is Paul referencing a future event or a past one?
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the [b]coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; 17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore [c]comfort one another with these words.
The evidence is that Paul in this passage is applying the end of the Old Covenant world of Israel in the first century, not the end of the world, or the end of the Christian age.
Scripture never speaks about the end of time. It never addresses the end of the Christian Age. God promised Mary, through the angel that He would give Him the throne of His Father David, and of His Kingdom there will be no end." Luke 1:32
Peter said on the day of Pentecost, that Jesus was On the Throne of David as promised. Acts 2.
The Hebrews writer said that the Saints living then in the first century were in the process of receiving the Kingdom. That the Kingdom was unshakable - indestructible. Daniel said that the Kingdom of Jesus would never pass away - never be destroyed.
Paul says that the Age of the New Covenant of Christ is an age without end. Ephesians 3. The age of Moses and the Law was to end, and the age of Messiah and the New Covenant was to be eternal. Matt 24
Jesus was the second Adam. 1 Cor 15 Adam was the first Adam. God sent Jesus to reverse what was done by the first man Adam. Paul said Christ was the first to be raised from the dead. Other people had been raised from physical death, the death from which Christ was the first raised was not physical death. Death - separation from God - Spiritual alienation from God. This was what Jesus accomplished with his resurrection. He reconciled mankind back to God.
Paulâs mission was to bring the Gentiles and the Jews into one Body in Christ. He accomplished his mission. The focus of the passage was not about removing man from the earth, it was about restoration of fellowship between God and mankind. God didnât didnât have to destroy the earth, end time and remove man from the earth to restore fellowship to man. Christ accomplished that.
The Revelation shows us what that life in the New Creation of Christ looks like Rev 21. God dwelling with man.
You are ignoring the vast amount of prophecy that do refer to the coming kingdom. If you are a preterist, when were the events Jesus specifically mentioned in Matthew 24 fulfilled?
Isaiah 13:10 âFor the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising and the moon will not shed its light. 11 I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; I will put an end to the pride of the arrogant, and lay low the haughtiness of the ruthless. 12 I will make men more rare than fine gold, and mankind than the gold of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger. 14 And like a hunted gazelle, or like sheep with none to gather them, every man will turn to his own people, and every man will flee to his own land. 15 Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. 16 Their infants will be dashed in pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished. 17 Behold, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold.â
Isaiah said this some 750 years before Jesus spoke those words in Matthew.
ââŚand they will see the Son of Man coming on the cloudsâŚâ
In the Old Covenant Scripture, the figurative phrase âcoming on the cloudsâ was used symbolic as in the picture of God coming in judgment of Egypt, âriding on a swift cloudâ - Isaiah 19.
And when God came in judgment on Nineveh in Nahum, with the clouds being the dust under His feet. And as David said in the Psalms âHe makes the clouds His chariot.â
And there was the âcloudâ on the mercy seat on top of the ark of the covenant, that symbolized the âpresence of God.â
When you take the time to study and reason things out, the answers are glaringly obvious.
Yes, Jesus quoted from Isaiah and other books. That does not negate prophecy.
You seem to believe that all Biblical prophecy has been fulfilled already, which would indicate you are a preterist. Since Jesus spoke of some very specific events that were yet in his future, when were these events fulfilled as predicted?
When Jesus ascended, he went up visibly in a cloud. He was very clear that as he departed, so he would return in like manner. IOW, very visible. In power and glory. There will be no mistaking what is happening, he will be coming back with a Heavenly host.
Yet again, he gave a pretty good picture of the state of the world just prior to his return. Where do you believe we are prophetically speaking, and what scripture supports your belief?
Jesus was not quoting Isaiah. "Coming on the cloudsâ was used to symbolize Godâs presence in judgment on His enemies⌠God coming in judgment of Egypt, âriding on a swift cloudâ and when He came in judgment on Nineveh.
Jesus didnât say this:
15 Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. 16 Their infants will be dashed in pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished. 17 Behold, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold.â
You seem bent on taking offense when none is intended. I was responding to Smyrnas questions about end time events, not trying to start a controversial thread We seem to share a lot of beliefs which you evidently donât. Thatâs fine and I donât mind controversy. I will always be glad to share what I believe and back it up with scripture. Yes, I actually do understand imagery and also that I canât prove my beliefs on prophecy, especially since it all hasnât happened yetâŚ
Iâve asked several times if you are a preterist, not as any kind of insult but because eschatology is a big interest of mine and I like to understand why different people/ denomination believe what they do, which is pretty much what Smyrna was asking.
For the record, I actually DO and HAVE actually read and studied my Bible in accordance with the Lordâs will. But so have many many people throughout history and STILL there is great divergence of beliefs on what it says and meansâŚ
I probably got the idea when you asked a bunch of questions in that one post and remarked that I hadnât mentioned other passages about the kingdom, when I was trying to answer your post in parts instead of all in one.
You are the one who labeled me as a Preterist before. I donât like labels. I donât hang labels on myself or onto others. I try to treat others as children of God, no more and no less. IMO, we donât have to agree on everything. Discussions are profitable.
I believe what Jesus and His Apostles taught. The writer of Romans 10 asked, â âHave they not heard?â He answers his own question. âIndeed they have for their voice has gone out to all the earth and their words to the ends of the world.â
The Apostles taught the history of redemption.
Bible history is not about this universe. It is about redemptive history. The writers do not speak of the end of time or the end of the universe. They do speak figuratively when speaking of:
Governments
Rulers
Kingdoms
They speak of:
The end
The completion
The perfection
âŚof Godâs redemptive plan.
Bible history ends with the completion of redemptive history.
We have been redeemed. Thatâs the good news the Apostles preached. And, that good new is still traveling to the ends of the world and back.
Romans 10:17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ. 18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have; for "Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world."
Yes. He was speaking of The Law in that sense, not Jesus. Jesus is going forward, without erasing any history. Itâs the going forward weâre discussingâŚall the way to just before His return. Do you believe in the second coming of Christ?
Paul didnât preach the law. Jews didnât preach the law of Moses, it was only for the Jews. Paul was speaking about the Apostles preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Jesus had sent them to preach the gospel to the Jewish nations.
Mark 16:14 Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they sat at table; and he upbraided them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen. 15 And he said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation.
Paul said the gospel had been preached to the ends of the world when he wrote Romans. They preached to the Jewish world. It was eight years before the Gentiles were included.
The writers didnât mention that a 5â 6" Jewish man in a flesh and blood body would return. Godâs Son returned. He came in the âlikenessâ of His Father. No one has seen God, likewise no one has seen the Son of God. He came in the Power and Glory of the Father.
Matthew 16:27 "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angelsâŚâ
Matthew 16:28 âTruly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom.â Woooohooooo! LOL
Interesting reading this exchange, the Rapture people vs the person who may have Praeterist leanings. As Catholic, I agree with the idea that the end times came when the Old Covenant was totally destroyed, and the New Covenant completely established. The predictions of Jesus coming was fulfilled in the destruction of the Old Covenant. I agree that Jesusâ predictions in Matthew 24 was primarily fulfilled in the 1st century. To try to read Revelation as only fulfilled 2000 years later makes no sense to me. Like Jesus predictions only applied 2000 years means they had no application until now doesnât make sense to me. However, I still believe that Jesus will come again, the second coming, but not trying to read every event nowadays back to Revelation and Matthew 24. Even though I will say it is primarily fulfilled in the first century, it doesnât mean there is no fulfillment in the future as well. Scripture has immediate & future fulfillments. There were things in the OT where there was a fulfillment in this event here that applied to the people at that time, but ultimately had a fulfillment in Christ. That is my thought but definitely interesting seeing the different perspectives on this. .
