Samm
April 4, 2019, 9:25pm
185
mobiusptc:
Samm:
Yes. Assuming there is anything wrong with the planes to be fixed. The initial indication following the first crash was a lack of communication between the Boeing auto flight control software developers and pilot training. In that case, a simple flip of a switch when the plane began to “misbehave” would have averted the crash. Supposedly a software patch was written to prevent a repeat of that issue, but it is not known if either the patch or the pilot training was implemented in this recent event.
In his own bumbling and inarticulate way, Trump’s initial response was correct. The complex technology on modern jet liners makes pilots lesser airmen. There are numerous incidents where reliance on computer technology caused the pilots forget rule number one in an emergency … “fly the plane.” Newer pilots in particular, tend to not develop the seat of the pants skills to fly the plane when the technology fails.
“simple flip of the switch” that there is a can of worm. if the switch is the autopilot all that would control do is make sure the pilot can control all of the primary flight controls(very important distinction) without interaction of any kind of automation. that is of course assuming its a non Fly-by-wire aircraft and understanding that the flight director, the throttles, and engine will still react as it was program was designed. the max is still mostly not fly by wire when not counting FADEC(engine controls) and spoiler system which is used both in flight and on touchdown. the Trim system would be one of those secondary flight control system which would again, not be directly affected by just a simple auto pilot disconnect. they would still act according to the programmed priority system so if he pilot were to hand fly, it would still continue to go about its business for better or for worse.
then of course you get into other “buttons” like aforementioned trim, hydraulics overrides etc which would have a giant list of secondary reaction that are specific to the air frame so i cant really say 100% what they would be. suffice to say system knowledge is key when going through any jet training.
But wait oh look…guess what they did
The pilots of a doomed Ethiopian Airlines jet followed all of Boeing’s recommended procedures when the plane started to nose dive but still couldn’t save it, according to findings from a preliminary report released Thursday by the Ethiopian government. The plane crashed just six minutes after taking off from Addis Ababa, killing all 157 people on board.Faulty sensor led to Boeing 737 Max crash, Ethiopian report says
First off, the MCAS is not part of the autopilot system. In fact, it is only operational when the autopilot is off and the plane is being flown manually.
Secondly, yes the crew turned the MCAS off as they were trained to do, but for reasons we may never know, they turned it back on before they had recovered control of the aircraft. The black box also showed that they were flying well over the prescribed airspeed for that segment of the flight (assent) which quite likely contributed to the sensor confusion in the MCAS. The critical airspeed envelope for passenger planes is very small.
dantes
April 4, 2019, 9:25pm
186
In the case of 737-MAX, the upgrade would have prevented the plane from killing the pilots. In the case of the Airbus 330, the upgrade would have prevented the pilots from killing themselves.
Bit of a difference I’d say.
Samm
April 4, 2019, 9:26pm
187
Huge pride is no substitute for competence.
1 Like
Samm:
mobiusptc:
Samm:
Yes. Assuming there is anything wrong with the planes to be fixed. The initial indication following the first crash was a lack of communication between the Boeing auto flight control software developers and pilot training. In that case, a simple flip of a switch when the plane began to “misbehave” would have averted the crash. Supposedly a software patch was written to prevent a repeat of that issue, but it is not known if either the patch or the pilot training was implemented in this recent event.
In his own bumbling and inarticulate way, Trump’s initial response was correct. The complex technology on modern jet liners makes pilots lesser airmen. There are numerous incidents where reliance on computer technology caused the pilots forget rule number one in an emergency … “fly the plane.” Newer pilots in particular, tend to not develop the seat of the pants skills to fly the plane when the technology fails.
“simple flip of the switch” that there is a can of worm. if the switch is the autopilot all that would control do is make sure the pilot can control all of the primary flight controls(very important distinction) without interaction of any kind of automation. that is of course assuming its a non Fly-by-wire aircraft and understanding that the flight director, the throttles, and engine will still react as it was program was designed. the max is still mostly not fly by wire when not counting FADEC(engine controls) and spoiler system which is used both in flight and on touchdown. the Trim system would be one of those secondary flight control system which would again, not be directly affected by just a simple auto pilot disconnect. they would still act according to the programmed priority system so if he pilot were to hand fly, it would still continue to go about its business for better or for worse.
then of course you get into other “buttons” like aforementioned trim, hydraulics overrides etc which would have a giant list of secondary reaction that are specific to the air frame so i cant really say 100% what they would be. suffice to say system knowledge is key when going through any jet training.
But wait oh look…guess what they did
The pilots of a doomed Ethiopian Airlines jet followed all of Boeing’s recommended procedures when the plane started to nose dive but still couldn’t save it, according to findings from a preliminary report released Thursday by the Ethiopian government. The plane crashed just six minutes after taking off from Addis Ababa, killing all 157 people on board.Faulty sensor led to Boeing 737 Max crash, Ethiopian report says
First off, the MCAS is not part of the autopilot system. In fact, it is only operational when the autopilot is off and the plane is being flown manually.
Secondly, yes the crew turned the MCAS off as they were trained to do, but for reasons we may never know, they turned it back on before they had recovered control of the aircraft. The black box also showed that they were flying well over the prescribed airspeed for that segment of the flight (assent) which quite likely contributed to the sensor confusion in the MCAS. The critical airspeed envelope for passenger planes is very small.
Read the part “if the switch is…”. That’s kinda important.
Critical airspeed envelop is small? Only if referring v to cofin corner. 737 can fly with flaps deployed at 200 Kia’s up to 250. That’s a pretty big envelope.
Competence in the fact they have less crashes and their competence mean they acted per manufacturer procedure.
Samm
April 4, 2019, 9:33pm
190
dantes:
In the case of 737-MAX, the upgrade would have prevented the plane from killing the pilots. In the case of the Airbus 330, the upgrade would have prevented the pilots from killing themselves.
Bit of a difference I’d say.
Not really. The Ethiopian Airlines chose to not purchase the upgrade and the pilots chose to not fly the plane as they were trained in conjunction with the Airlines descision. In the case of the Airbus and the pitot tube icing issue, the Airlines choice to not purchase the option that could have saved the aircraft had no compensating procedure for the pilot’s to follow.
Samm:
dantes:
In the case of 737-MAX, the upgrade would have prevented the plane from killing the pilots. In the case of the Airbus 330, the upgrade would have prevented the pilots from killing themselves.
Bit of a difference I’d say.
Not really. The Ethiopian Airlines chose to not purchase the upgrade and the pilots chose to not fly the plane as they were trained in conjunction with the Airlines descision. In the case of the Airbus and the pitot tube icing issue, the Airlines choice to not purchase the option that could have saved the aircraft had no compensating procedure for the pilot’s to follow.
Wrong. They followed the procedure approved by Boeing.
Samm
April 4, 2019, 9:38pm
192
mobiusptc:
Read the part “if the switch is…”. That’s kinda important.
Critical airspeed envelop is small? Only if referring v to cofin corner. 737 can fly with flaps deployed at 200 Kia’s up to 250. That’s a pretty big envelope.
The switch should not be turned back on before the pilots have recovered the aircraft. They did just that.
That is not what critical airspeed envelope means. A typical passenger aircraft can have a critical airspeed with respect to stall of as little as 20 kts. at certain stages of the flight. Climb is a particularly sensitive time for the critical flight envelope.
Samm:
After the first crash, I saw a video in which a very experienced airline pilot demonstrated that once the issue with the automatic anti-stall device is recognized by the pilot, it can easily be resolved by simply flipping one switch to deactivate the system and flying the airplane.
Yes. Hindisght is a great thing.
dantes
April 4, 2019, 9:43pm
194
You’re missing the point.
The pilots crashed the plane in Air France 447. They put it into a stall and didn’t pull out.
With Boeing, their software crashed the plane. Maybe and upgrade would have prevented it.
That is a huge difference.
Samm:
mobiusptc:
Read the part “if the switch is…”. That’s kinda important.
Critical airspeed envelop is small? Only if referring v to cofin corner. 737 can fly with flaps deployed at 200 Kia’s up to 250. That’s a pretty big envelope.
The switch should not be turned back on before the pilots have recovered the aircraft. They did just that.
That is not what critical airspeed envelope means. A typical passenger aircraft can have a critical airspeed with respect to stall of as little as 20 kts. at certain stages of the flight. Climb is a particularly sensitive time for the critical flight envelope.
Oh please tell me more about swept wing aerodynamics. Coffin corner specifically deals with airpeed envelop being crital Mach number and all
So did you mean the difference between green dot and their current speed? You have to be specific
But I am sure all your experience in air transport category aircraft should help
A little. But I did stay in a holiday in last night
1 Like
Samm
April 4, 2019, 10:02pm
197
It wasn’t hindsight. They were trained to turn off the switch and recover the aircraft manually. They didn’t do that.
Samm
April 4, 2019, 10:04pm
198
dantes:
You’re missing the point.
The pilots crashed the plane in Air France 447. They put it into a stall and didn’t pull out.
With Boeing, their software crashed the plane. Maybe and upgrade would have prevented it.
That is a huge difference.
No. The Air France pilots (and the autopilot) did not know their airspeed. That’s why they ended up stalling the plane.
The Boeing incidents probably would have been prevented by the optional software upgrade, but then in the case of the second incident, following the training and flying the aircraft have probably prevented it too.
It’s much much easier to fix a problem you know is going to happen in sim scenario then flying he line . They did do the procedure, it didn’t work. Period.
Holiday Inn Express…get it right.
1 Like
Samm
April 4, 2019, 10:10pm
201
mobiusptc:
Samm:
mobiusptc:
Read the part “if the switch is…”. That’s kinda important.
Critical airspeed envelop is small? Only if referring v to cofin corner. 737 can fly with flaps deployed at 200 Kia’s up to 250. That’s a pretty big envelope.
The switch should not be turned back on before the pilots have recovered the aircraft. They did just that.
That is not what critical airspeed envelope means. A typical passenger aircraft can have a critical airspeed with respect to stall of as little as 20 kts. at certain stages of the flight. Climb is a particularly sensitive time for the critical flight envelope.
Oh please tell me more about swept wing aerodynamics. Coffin corner specifically deals with airpeed envelop being crital Mach number and all
So did you mean the difference between green dot and their current speed? You have to be specific
But I am sure all your experience in air transport category aircraft should help
Why are you getting snippy and personal? If the information I have posted is in error address it.
dantes:
You’re missing the point.
The pilots crashed the plane in Air France 447. They put it into a stall and didn’t pull out.
With Boeing, their software crashed the plane. Maybe and upgrade would have prevented it.
That is a huge difference.
A stall, then another, then another, then another.
But they also did have a zillion EICAS message and we’re both trying to fly the aircraft…in different ways
dantes
April 4, 2019, 10:12pm
203
Uh, no. That’s incorrect. They crashed the plane because they pulled up unnecessarily and kept pulling up the entire time despite being in a stall with stall warnings going off nearly continuously.
The only thing the lack of airspeed did was take the plane off autopilot.
But I did. The ■■■■ hole country comment, non American pilots being subpar, and a meriad of other ones. All the while trying to portray knowledge.Doesn’t work so well
