Of vice and men

[Borgia_dude]

@Optrader

@Borgia_dude

@Optrader

That’s one of the reasons I believe it is sin. It’s an egregious waste of money that goes up in smoke, often at the expense of other things. Cigarettes, or drugs, or alcohol are funded before necessities for kids sometimes, and before God. Very poor stewardship of money to fund pure selfishness. It serves no purpose.

Wouldn’t buying a new car instead of used kind of align here? It seems it would also be a poor stewardship of money, funding selfishness or vanity.

There seem to be a lot of things that people buy for themselves and not the family. Expensive cars are but the tip of the iceberg of this poor stewardship of money.

Would tobacco be ok if the person is fabulously wealthy and the money he pays for tobacco doesn’t impinge on his family money?

You either didn’t read, or chose to ignore my posts on wealth. It is not wealth by itself, or what a person does with their wealth that is the problem. It is when the accumulation of wealth or the things it buys is put ahead of God that is the problem. Yes, buying a car could be a problem, but buying a car is more a necessity in today’s America than a luxury. Rather then me listing all the possible legitimate useful and beneficial reasons that people buy cars for, how about you list all the legitimate, useful and beneficial reasons people buy tobacco for? I’m guessing your list would be much shorter and faster to type than mine…

I’m not anti-car…just new cars.

If your argument is useful and beneficial, I think we are in general agreement. I even agree that spending money on frivolous things when that money is needed elsewhere is also undesirable.

But I think we all buy frivolous things, albeit not necessarily at high cost. The smoker who smokes a couple cigarettes a week. Or the drinker who drinks a couple drinks a week. Neither expense impacts things much for most people. Buying a novel instead of using the library. Personal hobbies like online games. Buying that 10th gun as a gun collector. Or buying that Morgan silver dollar to complete your collection.

We all do things to entertain ourselves or to relax. When those things consume our lives or take precedence over family I believe those things become a problem. But until then, who cares?

[Optrader]

@Borgia_dude

@Optrader

@Borgia_dude

@Optrader

That’s one of the reasons I believe it is sin. It’s an egregious waste of money that goes up in smoke, often at the expense of other things. Cigarettes, or drugs, or alcohol are funded before necessities for kids sometimes, and before God. Very poor stewardship of money to fund pure selfishness. It serves no purpose.

Wouldn’t buying a new car instead of used kind of align here? It seems it would also be a poor stewardship of money, funding selfishness or vanity.

There seem to be a lot of things that people buy for themselves and not the family. Expensive cars are but the tip of the iceberg of this poor stewardship of money.

Would tobacco be ok if the person is fabulously wealthy and the money he pays for tobacco doesn’t impinge on his family money?

You either didn’t read, or chose to ignore my posts on wealth. It is not wealth by itself, or what a person does with their wealth that is the problem. It is when the accumulation of wealth or the things it buys is put ahead of God that is the problem. Yes, buying a car could be a problem, but buying a car is more a necessity in today’s America than a luxury. Rather then me listing all the possible legitimate useful and beneficial reasons that people buy cars for, how about you list all the legitimate, useful and beneficial reasons people buy tobacco for? I’m guessing your list would be much shorter and faster to type than mine…

I’m not anti-car…just new cars.

If your argument is useful and beneficial, I think we are in general agreement. I even agree that spending money on frivolous things when that money is needed elsewhere is also undesirable.

But I think we all buy frivolous things, albeit not necessarily at high cost. The smoker who smokes a couple cigarettes a week. Or the drinker who drinks a couple drinks a week. Neither expense impacts things much for most people. Buying a novel instead of using the library. Personal hobbies like online games. Buying that 10th gun as a gun collector. Or buying that Morgan silver dollar to complete your collection.

We all do things to entertain ourselves or to relax. When those things consume our lives or take precedence over family I believe those things become a problem. But until then, who cares?

There is more than one reason that I believe Tobacco and alcohol etc. is a sin. Guvnah gave another huge reason…

[SixFoot]

@Piper

I don’t know about the raging alcoholic, but yes he did plant a vineyard and made wine.

Speaking about the uses, Proverbs 31 “Give strong drink to him who is perishing, and wine to those in bitter distress; let them drink and forget their poverty, and remember their misery no more.” There is proper uses for strong drink.

While I agree wholeheartedly with this Proverb, I would prefer to fill their hearts with joy by filling their lungs with the oils of my Keneh Bosem.

[Piper]

@SixFoot

While I agree wholeheartedly with this Proverb, I would prefer to fill their hearts with joy by filling their lungs with the oils of my Keneh Bosem

I had to google. I’ve never filled my lungs with that, but I’ve heard tales. God created everything on earth for us to use.

[SixFoot]

Indeed, and glory to His name.

[Piper]

@Optrader

Yet they accused him of blasphemy, breaking the Sabbath, being a threat to the peace and other sins too and then crucified him. You believe they wouldn’t lie about him being a drunk? Why is that when EVERY OTHER ACCUSATION AGAINST HIM WAS A LIE?

They? They who? I quoted what Luke said. The difference in me and many others in interpreting, is the fact that I take every Scripture. I am not willing (like some) to discount any Inspired Scriptures or any Inspired Writers.

The Holy Spirit inspired the writer to record for our learning, that Jesus attended a wedding. At that wedding, he turned about 108 gallons of water into wine. His first recorded miracle. That wine was for the purpose of “Social Drinking.” According to the accounts, it was some mighty good wine. To instantly have fermented wine, took more than just stomping grapes.

I don’t think the Holy Spirit was mistaken. Right here would have been a good place for the Holy Spirit to clarify that all alcoholic drinking was a sin. He did not and IMO, neither can we.

We are free to judge for ourselves, but not for others. Neither Jesus nor the Apostle Paul judged others in their food (eating meat sacrificed to idols) or in their drink, in day-keeping or circumcision. They left these things in the “indifference” category.

“The kingdom of God is not eating and drinking.” Romans 14 Some would have us believe that Jesus said “One who drinks wine cannot remain in the kingdom.”

I believe every word of this passage.

1 Corinthians 6:9 “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.”

[Guvnah]

@SixFoot

Indeed, and glory to His name.

Interesting thing about GN 1:29-30. Seems the leaves were meant for the beasts.

So it wasn’t until after the Fall that we had to start eating salad. And kale.

[SixFoot]

If you see someone smoking the leaf of a cannabis plant, please do laugh heartily at them for me.

[Guvnah]

My point was that eating salads and greens is part of our punishment for the Fall.

[SixFoot]

Well now I’m conflicted, because I love just about every veggie and salad stuff there is (definitely not kale though lol).

[Optrader]

@Guvnah

@SixFoot

Indeed, and glory to His name.

Interesting thing about GN 1:29-30. Seems the leaves were meant for the beasts.

So it wasn’t until after the Fall that we had to start eating salad. And kale.

There was no death before the fall Guv, where would meat have come from for Adam and Eve to eat? You won’t find Gods approval to eat meat until after the flood. Not that men probably hadn’t started eating meat prior, just that God didn’t approve it.

It was not the eating of salad per se that was part of the price Adam and Eve had to pay for disobeying, but rather that they would have to toil in the dirt rather than simply pluck what they needed.

[Guvnah]

@Optrader

It was not the eating of salad per se that was part of the price Adam and Eve had to pay for disobeying

I posted that facetiously. (Note the smileys.)

I prefer not eating salad. Or kale. Broccoli, I can take or leave. I was just joking around with my distaste for the greens.

Spinach? Well, if it’s a really good creamed recipe I can like it.

But yes, meat wasn’t on the menu in the Garden.

[AlexMcAlpine]

@Optrader

You won’t find Gods approval to eat meat until after the flood.

Our teeth don’t match up with that theory - unless God knew that eventually we’d all be eating meat and so gave us our canines - for tearing meat - from the get go.

In the same way animals weren’t vegetarians, either. Why give lions, tigers and bears such ginormous teeth and lithe strength if not to eat things with.

[Optrader]

@AlexMcAlpine

@Optrader

You won’t find Gods approval to eat meat until after the flood.

Our teeth don’t match up with that theory - unless God knew that eventually we’d all be eating meat and so gave us our canines - for tearing meat - from the get go.

In the same way animals weren’t vegetarians, either. Why give lions, tigers and bears such ginormous teeth and lithe strength if not to eat things with.

I’ve brought up the issue of our teeth before. Human teeth, and human digestive sytems are not designed to efficiently chew and digest meat. It is well established that vegetarians, as a general rule are healthier and live longer than meat eaters. One of the healthiest communities in the country is Loma Linda California, which has a large population of Seventh Day Adventists. They are mostly vegetarians and Vegans, and those that do eat meat adhere to the dietary laws in Leviticus 11.

If you are going to use the teeth of carnivores to point out the inconsistency of them living in Eden, yet not hunting and killing other animals, IOW being herbivores with carnivore teeth, why do you not accept that early humans, whom evolutionists claim were hunters and eaters of meat, didn’t likewise evolve with teeth and digestive system designed to eat meat?

Gods plan was for man to be herbivores. He put everything Adam and Eve needed for nutrition, literally in the garden for them to pluck off as needed. It wasn’t until after the flood that God gave approval for man to eat meat and even then He laid the restrictions of clean and unclean upon them.

Revelation says that the lion shall lay down with the lamb. Man and animals once lived together without killing each other and we will again in the new heaven and Earth which God is going to make…

[Piper]

@Optrader

Yet they accused him of blasphemy, breaking the Sabbath, being a threat to the peace and other sins too and then crucified him. You believe they wouldn’t lie about him being a drunk? Why is that when EVERY OTHER ACCUSATION AGAINST HIM WAS A LIE?

To be clear, I believe what Luke said, “The Son of man has come eating and drinking,” Luke didn’t deny that Jesus drank wine.
He ate bread and drank wine. That doesn’t mean that Jesus was a drunkard or a glutton.

His enemies (religious leaders) followed Him around during the 3+ years of his earthly ministry, trying to find a reason to kill Him. Like religious Leftists after Trump. They lie to make him look bad and “go to church” with their bible under their arm.

[Optrader]

@Piper

@Optrader

Yet they accused him of blasphemy, breaking the Sabbath, being a threat to the peace and other sins too and then crucified him. You believe they wouldn’t lie about him being a drunk? Why is that when EVERY OTHER ACCUSATION AGAINST HIM WAS A LIE?

To be clear, I believe what Luke said, “The Son of man has come eating and drinking,” Luke didn’t deny that Jesus drank wine.
He ate bread and drank wine. That doesn’t mean that Jesus was a drunkard or a glutton.

His enemies (religious leaders) followed Him around during the 3+ years of his earthly ministry, trying to find a reason to kill Him. Like religious Leftists after Trump. They lie to make him look bad and “go to church” with their bible under their arm.

You have not addressed the issues I raised. The first is that the Greek word for wine could be used for either fermented or unfermented grape juice. The second is what scripture itself says on the subject, which is “Proverbs 20:1 " WINE IS A MOCKER, STRONG DRINK IS RAGING: AND WHOSOEVER IS DECEIVED THEREBY IS NOT WISE.” There are no qualifiers which give a certain quantity for wine to be a mocker or alcohol content. It’s a direct condemnation on wine, unless you think being a mocker in that context is a good thing. The third point was in the form of an example. I’ll ask you again: If a person goes into a bar sober, and comes out after a while of drinking, then gets in an accident that kills someone, our laws have held bartenders and bar owners liable for serving the person to the point of drunkeness. Do you believe this is just? If you believe it is, then would Jesus be guilty of providing alcohol to someone at that wedding who then committed sin while under the influence? Or, do you believe that getting drunk isn’t a sin at all?

[Piper]

@Optrader

You have not addressed the issues I raised. The first is that the Greek word for wine could be used for either fermented or unfermented grape juice.

I know. It will be a long and tiresome answer and I haven’t had time to concentrate on it yet. Maybe I can shorten it.

[Optrader]

@Piper

@Optrader

You have not addressed the issues I raised. The first is that the Greek word for wine could be used for either fermented or unfermented grape juice.

I know. It will be a long and tiresome answer and I haven’t had time to concentrate on it yet. Maybe I can shorten it.

That’s ok. Full disclosure here: my Christian experience began in the Seventh Day Adventist Church. I left it for several years, then attended a fundamental Baptist Church, which I have been a member of for 11 years. Both of those churches share the same view of alcohol and use the same scriptures to condemn it. Though I share the view, I have to confess I still enjoy the taste of some wines and beer. I have been known to indulge on occasion, knowing If probably be excommunicated (put on church discipline) if my Pastor found out. Please don’t tell him…

I’m just curious how other churches deal with the issue and how they IMO, negate the scriptures that I gave…

[Piper]

@Optrader

That’s ok. Full disclosure here: my Christian experience began in the Seventh Day Adventist Church. I left it for several years, then attended a fundamental Baptist Church, which I have been a member of for 11 years. Both of those churches share the same view of alcohol and use the same scriptures to condemn it. Though I share the view, I have to confess I still enjoy the taste of some wines and beer. I have been known to indulge on occasion, knowing If probably be excommunicated (put on church discipline) if my Pastor found out. Please don’t tell him…

I drink occasionally, a few times a year. I can only sip on wine, because it makes me sleepy. I don’t need any help sleeping. I like a few wines and some brandy. I’m female but I love the taste of the Craft Beer, they brew at our local Cafe Bakery.

We don’t negate any Scripture, we harmonize Scripture. We study from Genesis to the Revelation.

God knows you drink but you are scared of the Pastor finding out? Sorry. I had to tease you a little.

From what I’ve seen, it’s easier to get into heaven than to get into some denominations.

Jesus says: Matthew 11:28 “Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

Jesus told the religious leaders of His day that had added to the Law of Moses and bound heavy burdens on the people and would not lift them that they were forgetting what was most important. Jesus said they “sat on Moses’ seat.” I guess some religious leaders think (like those leaders) that they sit on Christ’s seat and have authority from heaven to add to Scripture and bind ordinances on God’s people.

Jesus’ words still speak today to the leaders - “I require mercy, not sacrifice.” Mercy, justice and walking humbly before God. Jesus didn’t ask us to give up (sacrifice) wine, or a good steak dinner.

The road to Heaven does not go through the Pastor’s yard.

Jesus illustrated to the Jews about putting new wine in old wine-skins. The juice expands only while fermenting. This illustration did not have a bad connotation to them.

They had no means for keeping fresh grape juice except by fermenting it and keeping it as wine. No one has been able to show that grape juice can be kept in any desirable state for drinking from summer until Passover the next spring without the benefit of, cold, a vacuum sealed (modern invention) container, or fermentation.

Claiming diluted wine doesn’t help the case because it would still be alcoholic, no matter how small of a percentage of alcohol it contained. Acts 2, New wine was alcoholic.

The Corinthian disciples had a meal. Abuse of the meal resulted in the drunkenness of some. “For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal, and one is hungry and another drunk…” 1 Cor 11. It was fermented and even though some got drunk, Paul did not forbid that any of them drink. He said they had homes to drink in.

[Optrader]

Great answer! I do get what you’re saying. Drinking is not a salvation issue, nor is tobacco. Actually, only salvation is a salvation issue.

I’ve actually stepped back from my church from a position of leadership recently. Not over the issue of alcohol, but some other things within our church that I feel need to be addressed. Im not holding out much hope that they will. I don’t know if I will end up leaving but my wife and I are going to visit other churches. I still believe they are doctrinally correct but something has been missing for awhile.

Thanks, you’ve given me something to think about…