Of vice and men

Let’s face it. We love our vices, and we all have them to one degree or another. Some vices aren’t mentioned in the Bible because they didn’t exist in Biblical times, yet we still identify them as vices. Tobacco and drug use for example, are not forbidden (nor likewise condoned), yet many Christians, including myself consider them “sins”. Likewise many Christians, including myself, would classify drinking alcohol as a sin. In the absence of scripture and with disagreement among Christians, how do we as Christians, or on an individual basis, determine what is and what is not a sinful behavior? Do you believe Jesus will hold people who are mistaken accountable for their beliefs on a particular vice? Do you believe Jesus ever had or condoned any vice?

What is wrong with tobacco and alcohol? Didn’t Jesus drink wine?

As you’re not. Christian, you already pay no attention to what scripture says or doesn’t say. I’m curious as to what believers think…

That’s fine. It’s just a weird standard to hold yourself to when your divinity drank and shared wine with his apostles.

No. He didn’t.

Not only that, but he actually changed water into wine for wedding guests - unless Optrader is a believer in the two-wine theory.

If by two- wine theory you mean believing the root Greek word for wine can refer to either fermented or unfermented grape juice, then yes I am.

Yes, that’s what I meant. That’s what I’ve heard it called.

I thought they referred to people getting drunk on wine in the verses where he turns water into wine, taking about serving the good wine first. Full disclosure: I was raised in the Episcopal church which believes it was wine and not grape juice.

Who is the they you are referring to?

Scripture has more to say on alcohol, but it’s not just that I’m interested in.

Jesus was fully human, therefore he had vices.

Jesus was without sin, therefore he did not succumb to his vices.

Just as Philip and the eunuch in Acts 8 modeled for us the need for people more learned than ourselves to understand what scripture says, I defer to the leadership of my chosen religion to make clear what my religion says. And then it’s up to me to reconcile my personal druthers with the actual teaching of my church – and then understand that teaching and adhere to church teaching, or leave.

Amusing anecdote.

My mom’s side of the family were all Methodist/Presbyterian and were a mix of recreational drinkers with a few drunks thrown in. :smile: I remember them all having well stocked liquor pantries. :smile:

My dad’s side, primarily Methodists, were a mix of teetotalers to “special occasion” drinkers.

I was about 10 years old when my dad’s mom made her final visit to our place. And I do remember a bunch of alcohol related glassware and bottles of wine being hidden away. She was not only a teetotaler, but I later learned she was a lifelong member of the Prohibition Party.

All members of the same or closely related faiths.

Which brings me back to the point I have made a number of times here, which is ultimately, “opinions may vary.”

It sounds as if you are equating vice with temptation. We know he was tempted in all ways we are yet never gave in to temptation. No sin could be imputed to him. Temptation then can’t be a sin, but a vice, IMO, is something we actively partake of…

Absolutely, opinions vary, but I believe with certainty that Jesus has THE definitive opinion and fortunately ( or perhaps unfortunately ) he is judge and jury…

Both of my parents smoked dope for years, yet despite growing up in a home where it was readily available, I was never of a mind to even try it. Not a pride issue here, it just never appealed to me. My dad tried many times to get me to “stop being so stodgy” and asked me if I was afraid I wouldn’t like it. My response was “No, I’m afraid I would.” Everyone I know who smokes dope says it isn’t addicting and that may be true from a physical standpoint, but from a psychological standpoint I believe it is very addictive. I just made a decision when I was about 8, that I would never become a slave to a weed…

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None of my extended family did drugs, but most smoked way back then. To the point where even today I can still remember the brands, most smoked Winstons, my grandma (maternal) smoked Pall Malls. When I was 7 and my brother was 11, he decided to get into an aunt’s cigarettes and give smoking a try. Let’s just say it did NOT end well. He was coughing and puking up his guts all over the place. Any curiosity I ever had about cigarettes ended right then and there. I never smoked and my brother never touched a cigarette again.

I am.

As an extreme example, I would say an ex-alcoholic who never sips a drop again still has a vice, even though he never again gives in to the temptation.

But I can understand the distinction you are making.

I don’t see it worth arguing about. I see your point.

You don’t.