Of vice and men

[TheRedComet]

When you say dope what exactly are you talking about?

I don’t consider weed “dope.”

Dope is meth or heroin.

I don’t think me or anyone I associate with has ever called weed “dope.”

I think you’re a good bit older than me so maybe that’s the difference.

[Optrader]

@TheRedComet

When you say dope what exactly are you talking about?

I don’t consider weed “dope.”

Dope is meth or heroin.

I don’t think me or anyone I associate with has ever called weed “dope.”

I think you’re a good bit older than me so maybe that’s the difference.

I remember the term all through the 70s more than any other. Maybe it’s a regional term though…

[AZslim]

@Optrader

Let’s face it. We love our vices, and we all have them to one degree or another. Some vices aren’t mentioned in the Bible because they didn’t exist in Biblical times, yet we still identify them as vices. Tobacco and drug use for example, are not forbidden (nor likewise condoned), yet many Christians, including myself consider them “sins”. Likewise many Christians, including myself, would classify drinking alcohol as a sin. In the absence of scripture and with disagreement among Christians, how do we as Christians, or on an individual basis, determine what is and what is not a sinful behavior? Do you believe Jesus will hold people who are mistaken accountable for their beliefs on a particular vice? Do you believe Jesus ever had or condoned any vice?

I thought it was ok reinterpret parts of the bible due to the passage of time.

[Optrader]

@Safiel

@Optrader

@Safiel

Amusing anecdote.

My mom’s side of the family were all Methodist/Presbyterian and were a mix of recreational drinkers with a few drunks thrown in. I remember them all having well stocked liquor pantries.

My dad’s side, primarily Methodists, were a mix of teetotalers to “special occasion” drinkers.

I was about 10 years old when my dad’s mom made her final visit to our place. And I do remember a bunch of alcohol related glassware and bottles of wine being hidden away. She was not only a teetotaler, but I later learned she was a lifelong member of the Prohibition Party.

All members of the same or closely related faiths.

Which brings me back to the point I have made a number of times here, which is ultimately, “opinions may vary.”

Both of my parents smoked dope for years, yet despite growing up in a home where it was readily available, I was never of a mind to even try it. Not a pride issue here, it just never appealed to me. My dad tried many times to get me to “stop being so stodgy” and asked me if I was afraid I wouldn’t like it. My response was “No, I’m afraid I would.” Everyone I know who smokes dope says it isn’t addicting and that may be true from a physical standpoint, but from a psychological standpoint I believe it is very addictive. I just made a decision when I was about 8, that I would never become a slave to a weed…

None of my extended family did drugs, but most smoked way back then. To the point where even today I can still remember the brands, most smoked Winstons, my grandma (maternal) smoked Pall Malls. When I was 7 and my brother was 11, he decided to get into an aunt’s cigarettes and give smoking a try. Let’s just say it did NOT end well. He was coughing and puking up his guts all over the place. Any curiosity I ever had about cigarettes ended right then and there. I never smoked and my brother never touched a cigarette again.

About every smoker I know had the same experience. They gagged and choked and forced themselves for a period of time until their body got used to it. Why? And then 10 years later, almost all of them wish they had never started. I’ve never understood this. But what I really don’t understand is the staggering amount of money that people literally set in fire. A 5 dollar a pack a day smoker… Do the math at 10 years and 20. Double that if a married couple both smoke.

That’s one of the reasons I believe it is sin. It’s an egregious waste of money that goes up in smoke, often at the expense of other things. Cigarettes, or drugs, or alcohol are funded before necessities for kids sometimes, and before God. Very poor stewardship of money to fund pure selfishness. It serves no purpose.

[Optrader]

@AZslim

@Optrader

Let’s face it. We love our vices, and we all have them to one degree or another. Some vices aren’t mentioned in the Bible because they didn’t exist in Biblical times, yet we still identify them as vices. Tobacco and drug use for example, are not forbidden (nor likewise condoned), yet many Christians, including myself consider them “sins”. Likewise many Christians, including myself, would classify drinking alcohol as a sin. In the absence of scripture and with disagreement among Christians, how do we as Christians, or on an individual basis, determine what is and what is not a sinful behavior? Do you believe Jesus will hold people who are mistaken accountable for their beliefs on a particular vice? Do you believe Jesus ever had or condoned any vice?

I thought it was ok reinterpret parts of the bible due to the passage of time.

I go to the source itself to answer that question.

[Borgia_dude]

@Optrader

@Safiel

@Optrader

@Safiel

Amusing anecdote.

My mom’s side of the family were all Methodist/Presbyterian and were a mix of recreational drinkers with a few drunks thrown in. I remember them all having well stocked liquor pantries.

My dad’s side, primarily Methodists, were a mix of teetotalers to “special occasion” drinkers.

I was about 10 years old when my dad’s mom made her final visit to our place. And I do remember a bunch of alcohol related glassware and bottles of wine being hidden away. She was not only a teetotaler, but I later learned she was a lifelong member of the Prohibition Party.

All members of the same or closely related faiths.

Which brings me back to the point I have made a number of times here, which is ultimately, “opinions may vary.”

Both of my parents smoked dope for years, yet despite growing up in a home where it was readily available, I was never of a mind to even try it. Not a pride issue here, it just never appealed to me. My dad tried many times to get me to “stop being so stodgy” and asked me if I was afraid I wouldn’t like it. My response was “No, I’m afraid I would.” Everyone I know who smokes dope says it isn’t addicting and that may be true from a physical standpoint, but from a psychological standpoint I believe it is very addictive. I just made a decision when I was about 8, that I would never become a slave to a weed…

None of my extended family did drugs, but most smoked way back then. To the point where even today I can still remember the brands, most smoked Winstons, my grandma (maternal) smoked Pall Malls. When I was 7 and my brother was 11, he decided to get into an aunt’s cigarettes and give smoking a try. Let’s just say it did NOT end well. He was coughing and puking up his guts all over the place. Any curiosity I ever had about cigarettes ended right then and there. I never smoked and my brother never touched a cigarette again.

About every smoker I know had the same experience. They gagged and choked and forced themselves for a period of time until their body got used to it. Why? And then 10 years later, almost all of them wish they had never started. I’ve never understood this. But what I really don’t understand is the staggering amount of money that people literally set in fire. A 5 dollar a pack a day smoker… Do the math at 10 years and 20. Double that if a married couple both smoke.

That’s one of the reasons I believe it is sin. It’s an egregious waste of money that goes up in smoke, often at the expense of other things. Cigarettes, or drugs, or alcohol are funded before necessities for kids sometimes, and before God. Very poor stewardship of money to fund pure selfishness. It serves no purpose.

I am no fan of tobacco. I hate it and think those that use it are foolish.

But your argument can be extended to just about anything. I also think buying new cars is unnecessarily frivolous. Could be similarly construed as pure selfishness.

[Optrader]

@Guvnah

@Optrader

It sounds as if you are equating vice with temptation.

I am.

As an extreme example, I would say an ex-alcoholic who never sips a drop again still has a vice, even though he never again gives in to the temptation.

But I can understand the distinction you are making.

I don’t see it worth arguing about. I see your point.

No argument Guv, just wanting clarification of where you’re coming from.

[Optrader]

@Borgia_dude

@Optrader

@Safiel

@Optrader

@Safiel

Amusing anecdote.

My mom’s side of the family were all Methodist/Presbyterian and were a mix of recreational drinkers with a few drunks thrown in. I remember them all having well stocked liquor pantries.

My dad’s side, primarily Methodists, were a mix of teetotalers to “special occasion” drinkers.

I was about 10 years old when my dad’s mom made her final visit to our place. And I do remember a bunch of alcohol related glassware and bottles of wine being hidden away. She was not only a teetotaler, but I later learned she was a lifelong member of the Prohibition Party.

All members of the same or closely related faiths.

Which brings me back to the point I have made a number of times here, which is ultimately, “opinions may vary.”

Both of my parents smoked dope for years, yet despite growing up in a home where it was readily available, I was never of a mind to even try it. Not a pride issue here, it just never appealed to me. My dad tried many times to get me to “stop being so stodgy” and asked me if I was afraid I wouldn’t like it. My response was “No, I’m afraid I would.” Everyone I know who smokes dope says it isn’t addicting and that may be true from a physical standpoint, but from a psychological standpoint I believe it is very addictive. I just made a decision when I was about 8, that I would never become a slave to a weed…

None of my extended family did drugs, but most smoked way back then. To the point where even today I can still remember the brands, most smoked Winstons, my grandma (maternal) smoked Pall Malls. When I was 7 and my brother was 11, he decided to get into an aunt’s cigarettes and give smoking a try. Let’s just say it did NOT end well. He was coughing and puking up his guts all over the place. Any curiosity I ever had about cigarettes ended right then and there. I never smoked and my brother never touched a cigarette again.

About every smoker I know had the same experience. They gagged and choked and forced themselves for a period of time until their body got used to it. Why? And then 10 years later, almost all of them wish they had never started. I’ve never understood this. But what I really don’t understand is the staggering amount of money that people literally set in fire. A 5 dollar a pack a day smoker… Do the math at 10 years and 20. Double that if a married couple both smoke.

That’s one of the reasons I believe it is sin. It’s an egregious waste of money that goes up in smoke, often at the expense of other things. Cigarettes, or drugs, or alcohol are funded before necessities for kids sometimes, and before God. Very poor stewardship of money to fund pure selfishness. It serves no purpose.

I am no fan of tobacco. I hate it and think those that use it are foolish.

But your argument can be extended to just about anything. I also think buying new cars is unnecessarily frivolous. Could be similarly construed as pure selfishness.

Anything that anyone puts over God is idolatry. Jesus told the rich man to go and sell all he had and follow him. This was not a condemnation of wealth or wealthy people, but revealing where the mans priorities were. Some of the patriarchs in the Bible were fantastically wealthy yet He did not diminish or condemn their wealth. Cars do serve a purpose. What purpose dies tobacco serve?

[Optrader]

@mobulis

@Optrader

Let’s face it. We love our vices, and we all have them to one degree or another. Some vices aren’t mentioned in the Bible because they didn’t exist in Biblical times, yet we still identify them as vices. Tobacco and drug use for example, are not forbidden (nor likewise condoned), yet many Christians, including myself consider them “sins”. Likewise many Christians, including myself, would classify drinking alcohol as a sin. In the absence of scripture and with disagreement among Christians, how do we as Christians, or on an individual basis, determine what is and what is not a sinful behavior? Do you believe Jesus will hold people who are mistaken accountable for their beliefs on a particular vice? Do you believe Jesus ever had or condoned any vice?

You don’t.

Then who does?

[Optrader]

@Optrader

@fallenturtle

I thought they referred to people getting drunk on wine in the verses where he turns water into wine, taking about serving the good wine first. Full disclosure: I was raised in the Episcopal church which believes it was wine and not grape juice.

Who is the they you are referring to?

Now, I get who they is…
So you believe getting drunk is a sin?

[Borgia_dude]

@Optrader

@Optrader

@fallenturtle

I thought they referred to people getting drunk on wine in the verses where he turns water into wine, taking about serving the good wine first. Full disclosure: I was raised in the Episcopal church which believes it was wine and not grape juice.

Who is the they you are referring to?

Now, I get who they is…
So you believe getting drunk is a sin?

If I may interject, I see drunkenness as a form of gluttony. But just as eating moderately is fine I would say drinking in moderation is fine too.

[fallenturtle]

@Optrader

@Optrader

@fallenturtle

I thought they referred to people getting drunk on wine in the verses where he turns water into wine, taking about serving the good wine first. Full disclosure: I was raised in the Episcopal church which believes it was wine and not grape juice.

Who is the they you are referring to?

Now, I get who they is…
So you believe getting drunk is a sin?

I didn’t back when I was Christian. I’m agnostic now and therefore I no longer believe in sin. When I was religious my personal philosophy was that the only true sin was harming another person without remorse. This was partially because I found it very hard to believe that God would condemn a non-believer to hell even if they lived the most giving and virtuous life simply for not believing the right religion.

[Optrader]

@Borgia_dude

@Optrader

@Optrader

@fallenturtle

I thought they referred to people getting drunk on wine in the verses where he turns water into wine, taking about serving the good wine first. Full disclosure: I was raised in the Episcopal church which believes it was wine and not grape juice.

Who is the they you are referring to?

Now, I get who they is…
So you believe getting drunk is a sin?

If I may interject, I see drunkenness as a form of gluttony. But just as eating moderately is fine I would say drinking in moderation is fine too.

Ever accidently go from “moderate” to drunk?

[Borgia_dude]

@Optrader

@Borgia_dude

@Optrader

@Optrader

@fallenturtle

I thought they referred to people getting drunk on wine in the verses where he turns water into wine, taking about serving the good wine first. Full disclosure: I was raised in the Episcopal church which believes it was wine and not grape juice.

Who is the they you are referring to?

Now, I get who they is…
So you believe getting drunk is a sin?

If I may interject, I see drunkenness as a form of gluttony. But just as eating moderately is fine I would say drinking in moderation is fine too.

Ever accidently go from “moderate” to drunk?

Yes. As I have accidentally gone from almost full to quite full. Best intentions and all. But I believe your position is that it is easier to go from moderate to drunk with alcohol. Also potential ramifications of drunkenness are greater than gluttony.

[Optrader]

@Borgia_dude

@Optrader

@Borgia_dude

@Optrader

@Optrader

@fallenturtle

I thought they referred to people getting drunk on wine in the verses where he turns water into wine, taking about serving the good wine first. Full disclosure: I was raised in the Episcopal church which believes it was wine and not grape juice.

Who is the they you are referring to?

Now, I get who they is…
So you believe getting drunk is a sin?

If I may interject, I see drunkenness as a form of gluttony. But just as eating moderately is fine I would say drinking in moderation is fine too.

Ever accidently go from “moderate” to drunk?

Yes. As I have accidentally gone from almost full to quite full. Best intentions and all. But I believe your position is that it is easier to go from moderate to drunk with alcohol. Also potential ramifications of drunkenness are greater than gluttony.

A man goes into a bar sober but comes out 2 hours and 6 drinks later drunk. He gets in a car accident and kills someone. He is arrested and charged but so is the bar owner who served him. Is this fair?

[occu]

I dont think jesus condoned any vices.

You wont get any argument from me about the dangers of over consumption of alcohol, but a cold beer after a hard days work in the summer, a good wine with dinner, it is delicious.

In my opinion, like everything in life, health, work, politics, religon, moderation is key.

[mobulis]

@Optrader

@mobulis

@Optrader

Let’s face it. We love our vices, and we all have them to one degree or another. Some vices aren’t mentioned in the Bible because they didn’t exist in Biblical times, yet we still identify them as vices. Tobacco and drug use for example, are not forbidden (nor likewise condoned), yet many Christians, including myself consider them “sins”. Likewise many Christians, including myself, would classify drinking alcohol as a sin. In the absence of scripture and with disagreement among Christians, how do we as Christians, or on an individual basis, determine what is and what is not a sinful behavior? Do you believe Jesus will hold people who are mistaken accountable for their beliefs on a particular vice? Do you believe Jesus ever had or condoned any vice?

You don’t.

Then who does?

God, it’s in his book.

[Piper]

"I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself." Sin is in people, not things.

"To the pure all things are pure, but to the corrupt and unbelieving nothing is pure; their very minds and consciences are corrupted." Titus 1.

The Apostle Paul asked this question. “Have we no right to eat and to drink?” 1 Cor 9. “It is right not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that makes your brother stumble”. Romans 14, But, Paul did not indicate that NO disciple could eat meat or drink wine forevermore.

Romans 14:16 "So do not let your good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not food and drink but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit; "

Abstinence was needful only when someone’s faith would be jeopardized.

"So, whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." ! Cor 10. Glorify God in our drinking? Yes.

Using wine is a liberty of a disciple, but as in all liberties, the disciple is armed with self-control (temperance) and expediency.

"All things are lawful for me, ‘but not all things are helpful. All things are lawful for me,’ but I will not be enslaved by anything." Paul, 1 Cor 6.

[Optrader]

@Piper

"I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself." Sin is in people, not things.

"To the pure all things are pure, but to the corrupt and unbelieving nothing is pure; their very minds and consciences are corrupted." Titus 1.

The Apostle Paul asked this question. “Have we no right to eat and to drink?” 1 Cor 9. “It is right not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that makes your brother stumble”. Romans 14, But, Paul did not indicate that NO disciple could eat meat or drink wine forevermore.

Romans 14:16 "So do not let your good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not food and drink but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit; "

Abstinence was needful only when someone’s faith would be jeopardized.

"So, whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." ! Cor 10. Glorify God in our drinking? Yes.

Using wine is a liberty of a disciple, but as in all liberties, the disciple is armed with self-control (temperance) and expediency.

"All things are lawful for me, ‘but not all things are helpful. All things are lawful for me,’ but I will not be enslaved by anything." Paul, 1 Cor 6.

There are lots of things that are unclean of themselves that Jews, and therefore Jesus, did not touch or do. He would have followed all the laws God gave regarding unclean things. Did he eat pork? No, of course he didn’t because it’s part of the Levitical law. There are some things that changed for New Testament Christians, but Jesus was still an Old Testament Jew.

[Borgia_dude]

@Optrader

Cars do serve a purpose.

Buying a new car deprives your family of thousands of dollars that you could have used for them had you bought used. That was your argument about tobacco, right?