Are we headed toward another Gulf of Tonkin in the Black Sea?

Things have been getting strange in the Black Sea off the coast of Crimea. The UK, US, and other NATO countries recognize Ukraine as the official government for Crimea, but Russia has de facto control and has annexed the region. A UK warship entered the territorial waters of Crimea, which provoked an immediate forceful response from Russian forces. Details of the incident are disputed.

Meanwhile a few days later an UK official left a top secret dossier at a Kent bus stop. The dossier describes British plans to test Russian response to a British warship travelling within the 12-mile limit of the Crimean coast:

Putin’s comments seem to imply that Russia was willing to sink UK ships that violate Crimean territorial waters.

Speaking at his annual ‘Direct Line’ call-in show, Putin revealed that a US strategic airplane took off from an airfield on the island of Crete and flew towards Russia on the morning before HMS Defender entered Russian waters.

However, despite the provocation, the two NATO members do not want a conflict, and it is not true to say that the world is now standing on the brink of a world war, he said.
“Even if we had sunk that ship, it would still be hard to imagine that the world would be on the brink of World War III,” the president said. “Because those who are doing this know that they can’t get out of this war victorious. That’s a very important thing.”
Even if Russia had sunk British warship, it wouldn’t have started WW3 because US & UK know they can't win such a conflict - Putin — RT Russia & Former Soviet Union

Are the UK and the US intentionally trying to provoke a war with Russia?

Could the Black Sea become another Gulf of Tonkin? The US used an alleged attack in the Gulf of Tonkin as a pretext for war in Vietnam back in 1964.

Yaaa, no. US and UK don’t want a nuclear war. Which is what this would be

Are the UK and US going to avoid the waters around Crimea?

What would the US and UK do if Russia sinks a UK ship in the territorial waters of Crimea?

Interesting that we are doing this though.

Not end the world

No. Nuclear powers don’t provoke war with each other for no reason. Moving on.

The west nor Ukraine recognizes the Crimea as part of Russia yet it unfortunately is. The people in the area all have Russian passports now and get paid in Russian rubles. That area is pro Russian like eastern Ukraine. Then add in the massive bridge that was built from 2016-2018 linking Russia to the Crimea.

In all reality Crimea is part of Russia again and barring military force will stay that way, seems risky for little gain.

And no I am not a puppet of Putin my wife is from western Ukraine and her and her family despise Putin and the Donbass war.

IMO, none of that will happen. It’s suicidal to play with Pandora’s box and both sides have reasonable leadership. But we could set up a worst case scenario.

We fire back and destroy the target that sunk the British warship. This is my theory (I love nuclear war games even though I abhor nuclear weapons). This would play out over several days.

Both sides go to DEFCON 3 or equivalent (Russia doesn’t use the exact same system, but it’s similar). Then the game gets interesting.

If Russia responds by sinking another US or UK warship, we may respond with greater force.

US and other NATO naval forces begin to move into the Black Sea in large numbers. US and allied conventional forces worldwide are put on high alert. US Ohio class, UK Vanguard class, and French Triomphant class subs not being refueled but not on active patrol go to sea.

Russian nuclear forces go on high alert. Tu-95MS and Tu-160 “Blackjacks” are dispersed to staging fields. Russian SS-18, SS-19, RS-24, and Topol M ICBMs are put on hair trigger alert and are mostly set for counterforce. The liquid fueled missiles are fueled and put into standby mode, they can remain in this state for a few days; solid booster missiles like the SS-18 are already ready to go at anytime but are less accurate than US solid fueled missiles.

Russian ground and aerospace forces begin to fully mobilize, albeit not at the same rate as US and NATO forces due to their less efficient structure. Russian subs, the Deltas carrying Sinevas and the Boreis carrying Bulavas, not in refueling or already on patrol go to sea with a mixture of counterforce and countervalue (cities basically) target profiles.

US forces go to DEFCON 2 due to Russian mobilization and the bombers being dispersed from normal bases. Aegis or equivalent capable cruisers and destroyers from all US and allied nations (like the UK and Japan) mobilize for ABM defense. Russian ABM forces around the Moscow area ICBM fields do the same. Russia lacks any sort of ABM naval based systems. At this point one of two things happen.

A. Both sides back down from the brink.

B. One navy starts firing conventional weapons, like cruise missiles, at the other in the Black Sea.

If B happens, Russia goes to their equivalent of DEFCON 1 and permission is given to the Russian navy to sink US and allied ships by any means necessary, including but not limited to nuclear torpedos and cruise missiles, mixed in with conventional attacks. At this point, everything occurs over the span of a few hours.

Russian bombers begin leaving their dispersal airfields along with refueling planes. Su-27 and Su-35 fighters are mobilized to accompany them for defense. MiG-31 interceptors are dispersed to the edge of Russian airspace to attempt to shoot down US B-52 and B-2 bombers or at least their ALCM air to ground cruise missiles. Considering their long travel time, russian offensive forces are targeting mostly countervalue targets in CONUS but can be recalled. Russian ICBMs and SLBMs are held in reserve for now.

Numerous US and allied ships in the Black Sea suffer heavy damage and are sunk by nuclear naval weaponry as well as conventionally armed cruise missiles. US forces go to DEFCON 1. The president authorizes the use of nuclear counterforce strikes on all Russian forces.

US B-2 and B-52s carrying nuclear ALCMs and B83 bombs take off from their air bases. B-1s carrying conventional weapons take off as well to attack Russian naval forces operating outside the Black Sea. 200 American Minuteman III ICBMs, of which 450 are active, are fired at Russian ICBM silos, air fields, army bases, and at ABM command buildings and bunkers. The rest are held in reserve. The US is only targeting counterforce targets at this time, although the President is informed that the strike will kill several million Russian civilians immediately with millions more to die over the course of weeks and months due to some targets being located near cities.

Russian early warning systems detect more than 200 ICBM launches in CONUS. Russian ICBMs as well SLBMs, nearly 500 missiles in total, are fired at various targets across the continental United States, mostly counterforce targets like bases but some are targeted directly at cities. Sub strategic missiles and MiG-29 and Su-27s carrying tactical nuclear bombs are launched at every NATO capitol and major military installation in Europe.

The American warning system is more sophisticated than what the Russians use and immediately detect the launches and are able to estimate their targets and time to detonation. Most of the remaining US ICBM Arsenal is launched, along with a portion of American SLBMs.

After this, those in the know countdown the minutes until modern civilization is set back more than a thousand years. Even in such a scenario, both sides would have hundreds of missiles and other nuclear assets left in reserve. But there probably wouldn’t be any command and control left to use them. Except for the submarines.

Agreed.

It is morbidly fun to speculate though. And very depressing.

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Why would Ukraine recognize the annexation of part of their country.

Didn’t say they should, but it’s not going to change the situation in the Crimea. If there was a chance to keep Crimea that would have been in February of 2014 when a couple of hundred Russian special forces took over Crimea without firing a shot.

That would have been the time to act but no one did anything not the Ukraine, EU, or NATO. Now the Russians are dug in both with their army and navy and the only way they are leaving is through total war. And I doubt many in the west are wanting that.

Good thing we have aliens here to stop any nuclear exchange.

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Yes, by that logic Ukraine should give a large part western Ukraine back to Poland. The Soviets annexed about 200 miles of Polish territory at the end of World War II.

Of course Poland did not even exist as an independent country until after World War I. Before that much of western Ukraine was under Austrian control.

The history of Ukraine during the first half of 20th century was incredibly brutal compared to anything experienced in North America. There were multiple genocides, wars, gulags, and ethnic cleansings on a massive scale. The conflicts today are echoes of that.

I had a Russian coworker and a Ukrainian (western) coworker during the time this all went down in Crimea and Ukraine. Two very different explanations of what was going on. I think they stopped talking to each other.

:laughing::laughing:

Oh, you’re serious? :crazy_face::crazy_face::crazy_face:

The risk of nuclear war between the US and Russia is very small from what I can see; an escalation in the conventional war seems to be the goal.

According to Russian reports, the British vessel came within 2 miles of the Crimean coast.

The US and UK are trying to provoke a Russian response that would provide a pretext for sending more NATO troops, arms, and possibly air strikes into Ukraine. Think Kosovo 2.0.

Ironically the conflict with Russia has greatly reduced tensions about language within Ukraine. Most people don’t like Putin regardless of which language they speak.

Can you speak in Russian in Lviv, Ukraine? - YouTube

Wow man great post, what is your background

Didn’t we bomb a bunch of Russian soldiers last year? It didn’t really escalate then either.

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Well, there is another Dem in the White House, so the odds are pretty good.