Addressing the elephant in the womb

[Plasmaball]

Its like someone trued to convince people abortion was like murder…in an attempt to apron tug…

Change this sites name to glass houses…

[JayJay]

@ImRightYoureWrong

@JayJay

But it can be shown- to be a pro-lifer but not an open borders person shows an inconsistency in one’s value decision-making process.

And yes, the reverse is true- a pro-choice person should be all about restricting immigration.

It depends on what those values are based on though. Im not convinced being human means anything. I do, however, view people’s and animals actions and capabilities as the primary driver of how i value them. This is why i value laws protecting people from violence and putting violent criminals behind bars.

I’m talking about the value that were declared here for why the unborn are innocent vulnerable human beings who should protected.

I can make the case that so are many illegals who cross our borders.

[ImRightYoureWrong]

@JayJay

I’m talking about the value that were declared here for why the unborn are innocent vulnerable human beings who should protected.

I can make the case that so are many illegals who cross our borders.

But they would likely say that the person made the choice to cross the border and therefore arent innocent (which of course has nothing to do with the fact that they are human)

[Plasmaball]

Freedom is a ■■■■■■■■■■■■ and sometimes its gonna offend you…

[Guvnah]

@JayJay

I can make the case that so are many illegals who cross our borders.

The case that … they are not valuable? (If I missed what you’re saying, correct me on it.)

That’s where the utilitarian pseudo-philosophy people are trying to apply to the unborn could lead to.

The pro-lifer would say, “Don’t kill them either.”

[ImRightYoureWrong]

@Guvnah

That’s where the utilitarian pseudo-philosophy people are trying to apply to the unborn could lead to.

Except you havent described an alternative of how we should derive values. Youve only asserted your own values that you have. Thats what we were trying to discuss.

[Meriweather]

@mobulis

Nope you’ll just drive it underground.

Was slavery driven underground? How much? And do people approve of this?

[mobulis]

@Meriweather

@mobulis

Nope you’ll just drive it underground.

Was slavery driven underground? How much? And do people approve of this?

Nope.

[JayJay]

@ImRightYoureWrong

@JayJay

I’m talking about the value that were declared here for why the unborn are innocent vulnerable human beings who should protected.

I can make the case that so are many illegals who cross our borders.

But they would likely say that the person made the choice to cross the border and therefore arent innocent (which of course has nothing to do with the fact that they are human)

I can make the case that this was an innocent, moral choice that we only now consider immoral because we (analagous to the mother in the abortion example) decided we had the power to decide which of the vulnerable foreigners (analagous to the unborn) was allowed to “come out the womb” into our country, and which weren’t.

The vulnerable foreigner in a poor country is just desperately doing what he can to survive…he has no say in the laws that were written to close off a survival option for him. That was made by people far more powerful than he.

[ImRightYoureWrong]

@JayJay

I can make the case that this was an innocent, moral choice that we only now consider immoral because we (analagous to the mother in the abortion example) decided we had the power to decide which of the vulnerable foreigners (analagous to the unborn) was allowed to “come out the womb” into our country, and which weren’t.

The vulnerable foreigner in a poor country is just desperately doing what he can to survive…he has no say in the laws that were written to close off a survival option for him. That was made by people far more powerful than he.

I see. So its almost more of a question of “helplessness” not quite innocence?

[Guvnah]

@ImRightYoureWrong

Except you havent described an alternative of how we should derive values.

Of course I have.

You’ve rejected it.

Nothing more to say about that.

[JayJay]

@Guvnah

@JayJay

I can make the case that so are many illegals who cross our borders.

The case that … they are not valuable? (If I missed what you’re saying, correct me on it.)

That’s where the utilitarian pseudo-philosophy people are trying to apply to the unborn could lead to.

The pro-lifer would say, “Don’t kill them either.”

The pro-lifer may very well be killing many of them by cutting off an avenue of survival because we have decided we value preserving our territorial integrity and preserving our standard of life rather than helping them.

[ImRightYoureWrong]

@Guvnah

Of course I have.

You’ve rejected it.

Nothing more to say about that.

Please provide a quote of you describing your philosophical position of how values are derived or please repeat. Not what values you currently have. Otherwise, youre again just making assertions.

[JayJay]

@ImRightYoureWrong

@JayJay

I can make the case that this was an innocent, moral choice that we only now consider immoral because we (analagous to the mother in the abortion example) decided we had the power to decide which of the vulnerable foreigners (analagous to the unborn) was allowed to “come out the womb” into our country, and which weren’t.

The vulnerable foreigner in a poor country is just desperately doing what he can to survive…he has no say in the laws that were written to close off a survival option for him. That was made by people far more powerful than he.

I see. So its almost more of a question of “helplessness” not quite innocence?

You realize of course that I’m now going to be perceived as advocating for open borders.

[Meriweather]

@mobulis

Nope.

I believe people will come to recognize that taking the lives of the unborn is equally cruel and fruitless.

[ImRightYoureWrong]

@JayJay

You realize of course that I’m now going to be perceived as advocating for open borders.

Maybe even pro genocide

[ImRightYoureWrong]

@Meriweather

I believe people will come to recognize that taking the lives of the unborn is equally cruel and fruitless.

Early term abortion isnt remotely as cruel as a lifetime of slavery

[Guvnah]

@Meriweather

Was slavery driven underground?

Of course it was. We have slaves in this very country. Sex workers. Domestics. It’s illegal, and people get prosecuted for it.

By some measures we have as many slaves in this country today than we had at the peak of antebellum days.

All the same, I’m profoundly grateful that our forefathers made it illegal. And except for people who still use or peddle slaves today, our entire nation – both pro-lifers and abortion rights advocates – are equally grateful.

[JayJay]

@ImRightYoureWrong

@JayJay

You realize of course that I’m now going to be perceived as advocating for open borders.

Maybe even pro genocide

When I’ve actually not advocated a position at all.

Except that I enjoy teasing out assumptions being made with little to no data.

[LeroyBrown]

@Bodecea

Scratch the surface on an anti-choice person and you find out they are also anti-contraception.

Kind of a board brush you’re picking up there. I would prefer contraception to abortion.