Was the virgin birth allegory?


#183

Say, what??!! :smile: Forgive me, I teach English, including how to write a myth, fable, allegory, etc. Abe in space with a rogue asteroid doesn’t fit the definition of allegory any more than the Nativity story. If either was submitted as an allegory, both would receive a low score. The Nativity, submitted as a myth would receive a high score. So far, the story about Abe Lincoln doesn’t qualify as allegory, fable, or myth, but might be considered for science fiction. :sunny:

Any ways… I think your point may be that you believe the Nativity story is fiction of some type, and that everyone else should view it as fiction as well. Why do you believe everyone should view the Nativity as fiction? How do you benefit from considering it to be fiction? How will others benefit?


#184

Then the majority of history recorded in those days is hearsay. Is that how you see it, or do you just claim “hearsay” only when it comes to Jesus? If so, why?


#185

Wrong.

The majority of history, where humans learned how to write and record, was written at the time it was happening.

For some that was not…it has not been much of an influence on human civilization.

I think we can agree, Christianity has had a powerful impact on human civilization in the last 2000 or so years.

Mostly based on myths and stories.

You too are an atheist. You do not believe in in the vast majority of religions. You have settled on one you like, or was raised in.

I simply go one step further, and do not believe in any of them.
(although I do practice many of the various teachings on how to conduct oneself, but that is also is based in reality, and common sense)


#186

Sorry seems like you are dancing around this… you may think it’s a bad allegory, the point was that you can use people who existed in real life, in an allegory, if their own existence isn’t the focus of what is allegorical. You said virgin birth couldnt be allegory because Mary was a real person. That’s just wrong and I hope as an English teacher you can understand that because it’s fairly obvious…this thread is started by OP asking if the story is allegory that’s why we are discussing it


#187

The point is to have a discussion about whether or not it is fiction and if allegorical what does it mean. If you dont like that kind of conversation then you can not take part in discussion…its academic…you dont need to worship to explore religions you dont worship


#188

Not wrong. Return to primary sources in all aspects of history at that time. In fact, nothing was written about Socrates until Plato in the next generation. Further, someone in Plato’s generation said what Plato wrote and attributed to Socrates were actually his own ideas. One example, with my point being that while none of the historians may have known Jesus personally, all knew and recorded the ruckus his followers were causing.


#189

Wrong. An atheist is someone who does not believe in a higher power, no matter who names him or what he is called. What I believe about God may be different from what early Romans and Greeks believed about God…but we all believe in God. You, on the other hand, have no belief in that higher power.


#190
  1. The story presents Mary as a real person.
  2. Other stories present her as a real person.
  3. Doesn’t matter who used the term “allegory” first, by definition it is not a good example of an allegory because it barely fits the criteria for an allegory. In any case, I understood the OP was asking if the story was fictional, something I responded to in one of my first posts and did not see any reason to go over that part again.

#191

Don’t get testy. I am enjoying the discussion and part of a meaningful discussion is to be clear on how everyone is defining the terms being used. Allegory themes discuss morals. What do you believe are the morals presented in the Nativity story?


#192

we arent talking about Mary as a person. we are talking about the action of virgin birth being allegorical. It’s irrelevant whether or not Mary was real seems like a strange diversion from the subject … every part of an allegory doesnt need to be fiction…example a virgin birth but using historical people


#193

Allegory doesnt only express morals… they can also express some sort of spiritual reality or happening, say, for example like I already mentioned, the birth of some spirit or God from another realm…miracle creation…virgin birth. Seems you have very narrow definition of allegory which is incorrect


#194

Allegory isnt only for morality it is also for spirituality. Virgin birth symbolizes life from a God or another world. Birth of God


#195

Allegory doesnt only express morals… they can also express some sort of spiritual reality or happening, say, for example like I already mentioned, the birth of some spirit or God from another realm…miracle creation…virgin birth. Seems you have very narrow definition of allegory which is incorrect


#196

How do you see the action of a virgin birth as being a moral story/allegorical? Or, do you see it as fictional? How exactly do you see it?


#197

There is not a (current) major religion based on Socrates.
So I do put more weight on billions of people believing stories that are not based in reality, especially since some of those people, hold very important positions that can affect billions of others.

With that in mind…whether Socrates was real or not, does not affect anything.


#198

I am 99.9% atheist. I cannot claim, with absolute certainty there is not a higher power.

I can claim, the Christian God is based on myths and stories, with unsubstantial proof of its existence. So technically, I am closer to being an agnostic, vs an atheist.

I do not believe in spirits, or even spirituality for the most part.

I do believe everything in the universe is connected. The fact that I am breathing air, that Jefferson once breathed in, or have drank water that once rained down over earth a million years ago…is amazing.


#199

That doesn’t matter to historians. What they evaluate is also the second generation because nothing springs up instantly. We see that within the next generation the effect of Christ and his teachings was reaching high levels of government. Historians don’t claim someone didn’t exist if no current generation historian didn’t mention that person. They especially cannot/do not expect something that arose at a grassroots level (such as philosophy and religion) to be covered–not when historians are more apt to cover government and people in power. Christ and Socrates were of neither group.


#200

Actually, religion is based on reality. Perhaps you mean is not based on physical properties or physical life?


#201

You can label accounts as myths, but this does not make it so. Further, Christian teachings/philosophies are quite real.


#202

Are the religious teachings/philosophies of ancient Romans, Greeks, Egyptians equally as real?