complete ■■■■■■■■■
I have very little doubt that US military intelligence was very involved in the Ukranian offensive in late 2022-23. I have little doubt because at the time the better target for Ukraine if they want to win was not Kherson and Leman, it was Melitopol. Ukraine wanted Melitopol. At the time Melitopol was a shell, but Leman and Kherson served our interests better, which was to hand Russia a small defeat, but not a strategic defeat that would lead to Putin’s downfall and the question of who takes over after Putin. American interest was to NOT allow Ukraine to actually win, but just to not lose. Attacking in Kherson and Leman guaranteed a hard slog that Ukraine could win, but not an actual Russian defeat. That was the last time Ukraine did not choose its own way. By the time we gave them enough to actually go after Melitopol, it was too late.
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Challenge away. It won’t have any effect on Putin.
Yep. The sinking of the Lusitania in 1915, which killed 1198 people, was a legitimate act of war by Germany. They were even warned that they would be targeted if they carried war materials to Europe. Targeting that train (if indeed the train and not the bridge was the target) is legitimate if it carried freight headed to the front.
Yes, but that’s not my point. What I am saying is that regardless of what anybody else thinks about Ukraine’s actions, Putin could declare it an escalation and use it to justify escalating his own actions (such as taking out central Kyiv or nuclear power plants) and there is nothing anyone can say or do to stop him.
That song was off key the first time you sang it, but now it’s just boring.
Yes, missile attacks on NATO bases in Europe would be a legitimate act of war as well.
The public admission in the New York Times that the US military and intelligence assets based in Germany have been “part of the kill chain” in the war in Ukraine means that the US has been actively fighting the war from bases in Europe. The US and Germany are not neutral nations.
Ukraine has long been a hub of money laundering and corruption. How many US officials are on the payroll of dark forces who want war with Russia at all costs?
https://x.com/wallstreetapes/status/1930942931722182853?s=46
That is true. But that would also be an overt and indisputable escalation of the war since everyone knows that the NATO charter demands that each member country respond to an attack on one. Since you love to equate the events of this conflict with wars of the past, you must know that that is precisely what sparked off WWI.
Article 5 does not specify the response beyond taking the incident to the UN security council.
Trump has said that the US had no prior knowledge of the recent drone attacks. While it is highly likely that people in the US government had prior knowledge, it is certainly possible that Trump was never informed.
Trump has since given a tacit green light to Russian retaliation against Ukraine:
“They gave Putin a reason to go in and bomb the hell out of them last night"–President Trump
See video starting at 5:45:
Article 5 is a defense obligation among member countries, not the UN.
“The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognized by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.”
Their only commitment to the UN is to report the attack and the response measures taken to the UN Security Council to present them with the opportunity "to restore and maintain international peace and security.”
Putin does not need a green light from Trump to retaliate. Unless Trump declared he would nuke Russia if he did retaliate, there is no way to stop him from doing anything he choses to do.
Perspective matters.
2025 Nonimal GDP:
- Italy – $2.42 trillion
- Canada – $2.23 trillion
- Russia – $2.2 trillion
- Spain + Portugal – $2.2 trillion
- Brazil – $2.13 trillion
- South Korea – $2.07 trillion
- Australia – $2.01 trillion
Russia is a gas station with gangters and nukes.
Nothing more.
After recent events looks like Zelensky was holding some cards after all.
and still dealing
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As the text states, each member may take action “individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary . . .”
Translation: Each member is free to do nothing if that is what the member “deems necessary”.
The only real requirement is reporting to the UN Security Council:
“. . . Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof hall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security.”
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_17120.htm
Why do you do that? The FULL CONTEXT of that phrase you clipped out is:
" … will assist [NOT MAY] the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.”
The “necessary action” is to engage with the aggressor to restore the security of NATO’s turf.
Great! The US can stop funding the war and let Europe take over. With their overwhelming GDP advantage, winning the war in Ukraine should be a slam-dunk.
Of course there are two small problems. First nominal GDP is mostly smoke and mirrors. GDP-PPP (purchasing power parity) is a better estimate of actual output.
Second, even western experts are admitting the war is already lost. Here is a recent example:
MSN
Yes, each party takes whatever action it believes is necessary in response to an attack.
A military response is only one of many possibilities. Doing nothing is also a possibility. Complaining loudly is another possibility.
So Russia took Kiev and executed the entire Ukrainian government on state tv? No? Then they haven’t won the war yet.
Yes, if they can “restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area” without actually using military force they can. But the fact remains, Article 5 says that they WII ASSIST the attacked NATO member against the aggressor country. If the aggressor does not desist after non-violent means are employed, they will be subject to the combined force of the NATO Pact.
