Jezcoe:
thinkingman:
Utopian Economics?
nonsense. It’s called “the market”
not surprised if you weren’t taught that in schools. My kid is already being taught that all wages should be equal. I don’t know where to begin with such astounding nonsense, but enough about idiots like AOC.
Utopian economics ignores a lot of reality in the “market”
It is the Austrian/Chicago/George Mason philosophical push that treats people as widgets that can be replaced in a market instead of humans.
To be fair… the Neoliberals follow that same path.
But at it’s core, Utopian economics assumes an end point and works backwards relying on magic and faith instead of history and data.
Any employer can do whatever they want to make life great for their employees. If they want to get “philosophical” about it then have at it.
I can guarantee you though, that they won’t when they are operating on the razor thin bottom line.
When they greatly succeed, then they can provide soul jobs, with long ciggy breaks, gyms and daycares.
Jezcoe:
thinkingman:
Labor unions have a place when they can leverage better skills, and worker values.
Otherwise they are not much more than organized extortion. But let’s save that for another educational thread.
Labor unions are for anyone who sells their labor to food on their plate
There is no shame in selling one’s labor, no matter if it is low skilled or high skilled… it is still labor.
And no… it isn’t extortion.
It is the market.
It is quite the exact opposite of the “market”
Truck drivers with what, several weeks of vacation, provided by small to medium sized companies against their will, on top of the best health benefits?
While someone with an actual skill has much less at the nearby shop.
dantes
April 9, 2019, 12:50am
87
Then maybe you understand my first post that you decided to reply to in a condescending manner (to which I replied in kind).
Or maybe you don’t. I don’t care.
Jezcoe
April 9, 2019, 12:50am
88
thinkingman:
Jezcoe:
thinkingman:
Utopian Economics?
nonsense. It’s called “the market”
not surprised if you weren’t taught that in schools. My kid is already being taught that all wages should be equal. I don’t know where to begin with such astounding nonsense, but enough about idiots like AOC.
Utopian economics ignores a lot of reality in the “market”
It is the Austrian/Chicago/George Mason philosophical push that treats people as widgets that can be replaced in a market instead of humans.
To be fair… the Neoliberals follow that same path.
But at it’s core, Utopian economics assumes an end point and works backwards relying on magic and faith instead of history and data.
Any employer can do whatever they want to make life great for their employees. If they want to get “philosophical” about it then have at it.
I can guarantee you though, that they won’t when they are operating on the razor thin bottom line.
When they greatly succeed, then they can provide soul jobs, with long ciggy breaks, gyms and daycares.
Once again… The Utopian Economics view is showing through.
None of those things that you point to are ever given by the owners.
Why is that?
Because we live under a system where “creating shareholder value” is the most important thing.
Utopian Economics ignores that fact.
Do you want me to delete that post?
They are provided at places of employment by the owners. Gyms, daycares, etc… Can we agree to that first?
dantes
April 9, 2019, 12:55am
91
I don’t see what difference it makes so I say do whatever makes you feel good.
I think this is fundamental. Pay the least for what you get.
If what they “get” becomes expensive to the provider (thanks to artificially inflated min wages) then the price goes up without any improvement in the product.
And Americans will not pay for it.
Except in Seattle I guess like we keep hearing. They don’t care how expensive their crap is.
Jezcoe
April 9, 2019, 12:56am
93
thinkingman:
It is quite the exact opposite of the “market”
Truck drivers with what, several weeks of vacation, provided by small to medium sized companies against their will, on top of the best health benefits?
While someone with an actual skill has much less at the nearby shop.
Nope it is the market.
Funny you have chosen truck drivers who have been taking it on the chin for a few decades now… seeing their wages decrease around 50% in real dollars since the 80’s.
Autonomous vehicles will completely displace their jobs.
That will a couple million people out of work but productivity continues to rise.
So what do we do next?
Jezcoe
April 9, 2019, 12:57am
94
Why do you think that those things exist? And it isn’t out of the kindness of their hearts.
Jezcoe:
thinkingman:
It is quite the exact opposite of the “market”
Truck drivers with what, several weeks of vacation, provided by small to medium sized companies against their will, on top of the best health benefits?
While someone with an actual skill has much less at the nearby shop.
Nope it is the market.
Funny you have chosen truck drivers who have been taking it on the chin for a few decades now… seeing their wages decrease around 50% in real dollars since the 80’s.
Autonomous vehicles will completely displace their jobs.
That will a couple million people out of work but productivity continues to rise.
So what do we do next?
If robot drivers are better than human drivers, then the human drivers are in a pickle.
Unless they work for a wage that offsets what robot drivers would cost the company.
So the question is, what do the Teamsters do next?
But again, this is about min wage, not organized crime/labor unions
Cynic:
I bet they thought the same way
Even grade school kids know how to navigate reviews now… all of that is irrelevant with a significant number, and if you are being measured against your peers.
The funny part is your whole thread seems to be prompted based on how “long they existed” , as if that matters, with not even one mention about them actually being highly rated…
That would be consistent with the thinking of an elderly, right-wing person. Diners should want to continue eating the foods that were popular in the 18th century
Well I thought it was because of employers being “philosophical”
I think they exist because employers want to attract more/better employees. Granted, though, some will do it because they really want to treat their employees. That’s fine.
But it comes at a price, and it won’t happen when there’s no margin
This coming from cons who want manufacturing jobs to be FORCED to come back to the states. Free market my ass.
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Opposes minimum wage, opposes unions… what’s next, oppose weekends off?
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No…
When you make market conditions favorable, then they will more likely return.
There is nothing “forced” here.
The government should make market conditions as favorable as they can. One way is to reduce their taxes. Or what the left calls, profit punishments.
Jezcoe
April 9, 2019, 1:06am
101
thinkingman:
Jezcoe:
thinkingman:
It is quite the exact opposite of the “market”
Truck drivers with what, several weeks of vacation, provided by small to medium sized companies against their will, on top of the best health benefits?
While someone with an actual skill has much less at the nearby shop.
Nope it is the market.
Funny you have chosen truck drivers who have been taking it on the chin for a few decades now… seeing their wages decrease around 50% in real dollars since the 80’s.
Autonomous vehicles will completely displace their jobs.
That will a couple million people out of work but productivity continues to rise.
So what do we do next?
If robot drivers are better than human drivers, then the human drivers are in a pickle.
Unless they work for a wage that offsets what robot drivers would cost the company.
So the question is, what do the Teamsters do next?
But again, this is about min wage, not organized crime/labor unions
Minimum wage laws exist because of labor unions… so it is impossible to leave them out of the equation.
You see we are hitting on a real problem that economists have been mulling over since the industrial revolution. As there is more and more automation then the need for actual labor is lessened.
So if the need for labor is lessened across all industries, then there are less opportunities for people to sell their labor, whether it be low skilled or even high skilled.
So how does Utopian Economics address this? How does a philosophy that makes people widgets and inputs into a market address this very real future?
It doesn’t.
And that is the real problem there.
So, let’s get back to a minimum wage and the elimination of it. If you have millions of people who have no path to making a living wage, no matter what their skill level may be… what happens next?
Is there a minimum wage for being a human? Or does the philosophy of Utopian Economics not allow that?
1 Like
Jezcoe
April 9, 2019, 1:07am
102
thinkingman:
Well I thought it was because of employers being “philosophical”
I think they exist because employers want to attract more/better employees. Granted, though, some will do it because they really want to treat their employees. That’s fine.
But it comes at a price, and it won’t happen when there’s no margin
Most employers could give a crap about employees.
How do we know this?
History
I don’t oppose unions, when implemented to leverage the marketability of the members, with their skills, ethics, quality etc…
I do oppose minimum wage though. for the sake of the employer, the employee and the consumer.
