Key point!
Judgement to lead your own life absolutely.
But god’s judgment of who is just and who is not in the end is his and his alone.
That is the reason Jesus would walk with the sinful, those that consider themselves “pure” have no need of him.
Your question is the very same one the Pharisees struggled with.
… and told them to go and sin no more.
Even though He (who had the authority to do do) said that he didn’t condemn her, (HER as a person), he also told her that what she did was a sin. In essence, “Doing that is bad, but you are not bad.”
I don’t believe the Pharisees struggled with the question at all. Jesus called them hypocrites. Yet Paul, who called himself the chief of sinners, also called sin by its name AND in Corinthians, he told the church there to kick a young man out of their church because of his sinful relationship. What is the difference between Paul and the Pharisees? As a matter of fact, Paul had been a Pharisee before becoming a Christian…
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Right, and maybe she did or maybe she didn’t. But The point is the Christian path is one of constant grace and growth.
No one lives without sin it’s impossible and no sin is greater then another. This is why judgment is gods realm and no one else’s.
Rather then pointing to the fault of others walk the path and lead by example.
For starters, I would hope that’s not how you would raise your own kid. Oh, no doubt it’s right to lead by example, but you have to point out their faults to help them grow properly.
More generally, Jesus said:
15 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector." (MT 18:15+)
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Right I thought about that last line I wrote cause you are right. The essence of what I am trying to convey is that we are not qualified to come from a place of judgment regarding the sins of others. We are all sinful and never without sin, but rather through a place of grace and growth.
Understanding that grace could be rejected or embraced.
Growing closer due to him because of his grace, which leads to love which in turn keeps us striving to become better Christians because of the love for him.
Not from a place of fear and condemnation.
But we CAN judge the sin. Wrong is wrong.
We can NOT judge the sinner. That’s God’s job.
Just because I am a sinner does not make me unqualified to know right from wrong. Nor does it preclude me from calling out a sin. If I were unfit to call out a sin that I myself have committed, I would never have been able to discipline my kids when they were growing up.
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You can judge the sin to the extent that we all live in sin, there is no one living without sin not a single one.
Very true, yet if preaching the gospel, and by this I mean the whole gospel, could only be preached by non sinners, then it could never have been preached except by Jesus.
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You can judge the sin to say that it is wrong. I’ll repeat: Wrong is wrong. Maybe I’m misinterpreting what you are trying to say, but it seem to me you are suggesting that I cannot say to someone, “That is wrong.” (And saying that to someone most certainly is making a judgment about that action.)
I provided words from Jesus directly from the Gospel saying precisely that we are to call out our brother’s sin. And why is that? Because, “If they listen to you, you have won them over.” I want another’s salvation as much as I want my own. And I hope he wants the same for me.
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Jesus was speaking to Jews who had multiple wives. What now?
Nothing in Jesus teaches telss us that to be like Jesus we should sit on our butts and think hash thoughts about people for having blue hair or for being gay.
Having blue hair may be a sin.
Sex before marriage may be a sin.
But in the same sermon we are discussing Jesus said
"24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like . . . 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice . . . "
What part of "putting them into practice involves sitting around feeling holier than others? Obvously none.
Sitting around thinking harsh thoughts about others? Obviously none.
He told us to do specific things. Either we
a.) do those or we
b.) sit around thinking bad things about other people
Some people will choose “b” can call themselves Christians.
The choice is yours.
I don’t know where you get the idea that Christians are called to sit around feeling holier than others or thinking harsh thoughts about them. But that is different than calling sin by it’s name. Jesus called Peter Satan, that’s about as harsh as it can get.
Christians are told to love their enemies, but we don’t have to like our enemies or condone and keep silent about the evil they do, especially when they are waging a defacto war on God and his people by their words and actions. I will not apologize for calling abortion murder, adultery and fornication sin and homosexuality a perverted abomination, but keep in mind that this is an opinions forum where we come to express ourselves and talk about subjects that most of us don’t engage in in our daily lives. I’m not called to carry around a soap box and megaphone getting in people’s faces and denouncing them as sinners, nor do I, but there may come a time when we all have to make a choice publicly about what we believe and that may have negative consequences down here on earth. We are already beginning to see what is being done to conservatives, and many of those people aren’t necessarily born again Christians, yet they are being persecuted because they dissent against those currently in power.
This is going to get much worse. As scripture says choose this day who you will serve… Before the choice is taken from you.
“With what judgment” - “with the same measure it will be measured to us.” If we judge others harshly, God will judge us harshly when we mess up.
God, the righteous judge has all of the facts, we do not.
Socrates said “only the examined life is worth living.” Not judging or examining others, but by examining and judging ourselves. I agree. We only have control over our own lives and should not want to control others.
We pass laws and punish people who breaks them. Is this a form of judgement? Do we have this right?
Yes, we have that right.
1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be subject, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.
Romans 13.
My previous post was concentrated on that one passage from your OP.
First…separate Church and State especially when applying something like this that’s completely Church. When it comes to political matters, I pay taxes and am one of the judges. When it comes to the Church, I judge for myself what’s right and what’s not. I then take the path through what ever it is based on that judgement. What I don’t do, is judge others. I’ll judge their behavior and decide if it’s right or wrong but there are many, many things, where I’m not privy to the all of the details that are necessary to make an accurate judgement.
That said, I have loved ones that depend on me and with them, I’ll share my opinion. Sometimes that does involve a judgement but my advice is to those that I am passing the torch of life to, in which to help them decide what’s right and wrong for them going forward.
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Yes, I was thinking of these scriptures. But God’s command to obey the government is not a command to blind obedience. God is talking about obedience to the government so long as it isn’t in defiance of His law. But while these scriptures are talking about law, they also talk about those who break the law facing judgement, and therein lies the issue.
Judgement and judging. They are very similar, yet also very different. Too many people make no distinction between the two and believe that if someone uses judgement, and acts upon it, that they are “judging” someone else.
While this can be true, to me, judging someone implies first, that the person doing the judging has the AUTHORITY to do so, and second, the POWER to do so, and third, it implies the right to act upon SOMEONE ELSE other than ourselves.
For example: God’s word defines sin very well. There are no ambiguities. God’s word gives Christians the authority to likewise identify sin and to look at someone else’s behavior and make a judgement as to whether or not that person is engaging in sin. This is a judgement based on God’s authority. By using this judgement, we are led to another judgement, what are WE going to do in response to that person’s behavior or sin? As individuals, we have authority and power only over ourselves. Authority and power over others must be legitimately gained either by God, or by society and in both of those instances, that authority and power may only be used within well defined parameters.
In Corinthians, we read that Paul called the Corinthian church out because a young man in the church was engaging in a very inappropriate relationship. In fact, it was his father’s wife he was involved with. Paul was very outspoken that the church should not tolerate this within and told the church that if the young man continued in this sin, he should be kicked out of the church. Which the church did. You could say that this was “judging” the young man.
What I left out of the story, was that before the young man was kicked out, he was Biblically counselled and told what the judgement was going to be first…Also, Paul made clear that if the young man repented of his behavior and asked forgiveness, he was to be received back into the fold.
Think about this: Christians have been entrusted with the single most important truth in all of history. Namely, that Jesus Christ is the one and only way into Heaven and that by his very own words, recorded in scripture, He makes it clear that repentance and being born again are requirements for salvation. REPENTANCE. So if Jesus makes this a requirement, would it be fair if he didn’t also let us know what it is and what it means, so that we could do it?
Christians have this truth. Should we leave it out of the gospel message because it may be offensive to some people then?
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I can’t improve on God’s perfect plan. His plan works for everyone. His plan is a man - Jesus.
It must be a free choice from within each person. It must be inner-directed … not coerced that only results in conformity.
IMO, we would be deceiving ourselves if we are content with our spiritual, intellectual or moral state. We humans are prone to being satisfied with ourselves as being well informed. We are fooling ourselves.
Politicians do not help the cause when they talk about God and religion. It causes hate for religious people and makes them want to destroy it. Being a child of God does not require carrying a Bible and a bullhorn and making a public demonstration.
