Is Jesus a radical?

Religion
82

There is much here. Yes, Eve was the one deceived, whereas Adam chose to sin with his eyes open. Because of this they spiritually died. They were put out of the garden, as you say they were separated, but they also began to physically age and die, and both did die a physical death, another thing that changed was their nature. This changed nature- the sin nature was what has ben passed down to humanity since. Remember, they didn’t have children until after their fall.

All people since have been born with this fallen sinful nature. Jesus is the exception to this. He was born with the same nature that Adam and Eve were created with. I could go in depth about why I believe this to be true, but consider the one major difference which we all believe about Jesus, namely that he was born of a virgin. I don’t believe that God did this just to create a miraculous deed though it certainly was. I believe God did this because only by removing the male from the reproductive process could an unfallen nature be produced in the female womb. Again, I could go in depth, but I believe the sin nature is carried in the blood of men ( perhaps in both men and women) and passed on that way. ( My beliefs here are not exactly spelled out explicitly in scripture, but alluded to in scripture and other things I have studied.)

Here’s some things to consider regarding blood:
It is crucial in the atonement process both in the OT and in Christ’s death. His blood HAD TO BE SHED. It’s use in the sacrificial service was very meticulously specified by God. And God forbade the drinking of blood… Why? In medical science we know there are several types of blood. The types are so different that getting a transfusion of the wrong type can be fatal to a person, yet a mother can carry a baby with a different type of blood in her womb and not be affected! That’s because the mother’s blood never mingles with her unborn child. God could create a human child in the womb of a mother with a perfect untainted nature and it’s blood would not be affected by sin…

I will continue this line of thinking in another post…

83

Do you believe in Satan as depicted in Scripture? That he was the archangel Lucifer who led a rebellion in heaven against God, and that a third of the angels rebelled with him and were subsequently cast down to earth? Just curious…

84

Very true.

My counsel to someone who says he doesn’t need church, he doesn’t get anything out of it, etc., …

You (generic) may not think you get anything out of church or don’t need it, but the church needs you. You have no idea if the simple fact of you being there was the thing someone else needed to see or experience. Maybe you smiled at him. Maybe he saw you with your family. Maybe not this past Sunday, but the previous one. You just don’t know. St. Paul’s letters stress that we are all parts of one body. We can’t say to some other part, “I don’t need you.” And the corollary is that a part can’t say to the other parts, “You don’t need me.”

1 Like
85

The way I see the story, Adam was right there when Eve was tempted. Nothing in the story indicates that Adam did anything to stop the temptation, or to stop Eve from submitting. He just stood by and watched.

It was a sin of omission. He should have been her protector. Defender.

It’s what a good husband should do.

Of course, subsequently he succumbed to peer pressure and ate of the fruit too.

1 Like
86

I do not take any of Revelation literally. Neither John (the author) nor anyone could have knowledge of the things written in there.

I believe Revelation is pure symbolism (like if you or I wrote a children’s story involving talking animals, but every Christian reader would know our story parallels the life of Jesus.)

Satan as a person-like being at all? I am bothered by that notion so it would be wrong say “I believe that.” (I am not being evasive, I just don’t know the same way most Christians say “I don’t understand the Trinity.”)

1 Like
87

Isaiah 45:5 “I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I gird you, though you do not know me, 6 that men may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other. 7 I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe, I am the LORD, who do all these things.”

Isaiah’s statement that God created both good and evil; disaster, light and darkness should kill any notion of a dualistic view of the cosmos.

Also the false view of satan which many have adopted.

1 Like
88

That’s the thing about prophecy, the prophet doesn’t know of himself, but only what God reveals. Daniel and Revelation go hand in hand in that they both talk about end time events. Many prophecies in Daniel were explained beforehand and came to pass. There’s lots of things that don’t make sense, some things clearly symbolic, metaphors etc., but as I read Jesus words regarding the state of humanity and the world shortly before his return, I can’t ignore that the things he said are coming to pass in my lifetime. Also many other end time prophecies are beginning.

I also can’t explain the exponential growth of evil that is happening not just here in America, but around the world. There literally isn’t anything that’s improving in regards to our human morality. I don’t know how that could be explained by any other way than a being like Satan being behind it.

89

Our Egos are the Satan (Accuser). We constantly accuse ourselves and each other. We sin against ourselves and each other. We wrestle with the temptations of our own makings.

There is no outside force causing us to sin. It’s always been us.

1 Like
90

You probably know this but the author of Revelation introduce himself as an internee at a Roman penal colony where he has been exiled/imprisoned for spreading the Word.

Rev 1:9
I, John, your brother, who share with you the distress, the kingdom, and the endurance we have in Jesus, found myself on the island called Patmos* because I proclaimed God’s word and gave testimony to Jesus.

It is no wonder he wrote in code/symbolism. His letters were being read and if he wrote to obviously would never have been sent.

Oh and btw some trivia:
The word “Lucifer” appears in only one place in the Bible (in Isaiah 14;12) wherd it is Stong’s 1966, Hebrew: הֵילֵל (pronounced "hay-lale’ "and normally is translated as “morning star” or some such.

It appears only in the KJV and a small number of other translations as Lucifer which is Latin for “the bearer of light.” (see below) It never appears in Revelation and never appears in any book in most translations of the Bible.

Isaiah 14 is clearly a prediction about the eventual downfall of the King of Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar I think). Thus calling Satan “Lucifer” is not a name, it is just a nickname, like if I called my boss “Miss Hitler”

.
.
.
.
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/1966.htm

New International Version
How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

New Living Translation
“How you are fallen from heaven, O shining star, son of the morning! You have been thrown down to the earth, you who destroyed the nations of the world.

English Standard Version
“How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!

King James Bible
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

New King James Version
“How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!

1 Like
91

I believe the entire point of Genesis 1-4 (though Cain and Abel)
and probably Gen 1-11 (Noah, the Tower of Babel everything prior to Abram)
was to teach some version of dualism.

God created a perfect world, a paradise, where no one had to work, no one struggled for food, no one fought, women were equal, no one was an outcast, no one even formed separate, sometimes warring nations.

In each of those stories (Adam & Eve, Cain & Abel, Noah, Babel) we see that earth, as it currently exists was not God’s “Plan A.” God intended the world to be one way, a way without the aforementioned sufferings, and it was man who brought those things upon ourselves.

If I understand dualism the way you are using it, then those stories are there specifically to promote a dualistic view.

92

So God made a mistake?

93

What happened,
the way things are,
was not God’s Plan A.

I don’t know that I’d count that as a mistake.

I let my son do what he wanted his first Halloween. (age 3??)
Not knowing about the free candy he just went from house to house showing off his costume. (He was a giant bug.)

I’d say he missed out on the free candy, but we don’t eat much candy in our house so he didn’t even know what that was. (Just brown paper wrapped around something hard. No idea that the thing inside goes in your mouth and causes great joy.)

Did I make a mistake? Only if I predicted what he would do.

94

No. God restrains men and devils from doing evil to the full extent they would like to do. He does not control our adversaries. To discipline evil free will actions He removes His restraints from our adversaries so that their evil free wills come against ours. Evil actors do their own will, not God’s will.

95

We see a developing understanding of Yahweh as the Bible progresses. God reveals Himself to people, but their descriptions of what they heard from God are coloured by their own cultural worldview. God led Abraham and his descendants from ancient near eastern ideas of gods as blooodthirsty, violent glory-demanding powers to the perfect image of Himself expressed in the incarnation, life, death and resurrection of the Son as Jesus of Nazareth.

One writer saw God as all-powerful and inferred that He is the therefore the cause of all things, and therefore of David’s sin. The second writer realised that omnipotence does not necessarily imply exhaustive active control of all beings, and attributed David’s sin to an evil freewill agent other than God. Jesus confirms the latter view as the more enlightened and accurately conveyed.

We need to interpret OT portraits of God, discerned through a tentative feeling after Him, in the light of the perfect revelation of God’s nature and ways as revealed in the Son and the cross.

1 Like
96

I see I am out of my league here, but if I may offer some comments from the peanut gallery:

1

Augustine described a youthful indiscretion in which he and some friends stole some some pears from a neighbor’s tree and threw them away (threw them at a pig I think) not because they wanted the pears but just for the pure joy of sinning, particularly in groups.

Those pears truly were pleasant to the sight; but it was not for them that my miserable soul lusted, for I had abundance of better, but those I plucked simply that I might steal. For, having plucked them, I threw them away, my sole gratification in them being my own sin, which I was pleased to enjoy. . . .

. . . For had I at that time loved the pears I stole, and wished to enjoy them, I might have done so alone, if I could have been satisfied with the mere commission of the theft by which my pleasure was secured; nor needed I have provoked that itching of my own passions, by the encouragement of accomplices. But as my enjoyment was not in those pears, it was in the crime itself, which the company of my fellow-sinners produced.

The idea being we are all “born with” at least some evil, some desire to do things that displease God. This view tends to favor some sort of dualism, but leaves the door slightly ajar.

2

In Romans 7 (a favorite passage among recovering alcoholics and addicts btw) Paul implies that we are slaves to the sin living within us, despite our wishes and our efforts we cannot do it alone. We need God’s help to live a Godly life.

15I don’t really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don’t do it. Instead, I do what I hate. 16But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good. 17So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it. . . .

21I have discovered this principle of life—that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. 22I love God’s law with all my heart. 23But there is another power within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. 24Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death?

Monism, sorta. Our own desire and effort are still necessary. This passage also implies some sort of dualism. For Paul did not write “God made me want to change and God caused me to make an effort.”

So, we are evil to begin with (or rather evil desires control us), the desire and the effort to do right must first come from ourselves, the monistic view is correct only in that God decides whether our efforts will be successful.

3

John 9 (1-4) implies that God tests us (or challenges us)

1As Jesus was walking along, he saw a man who had been blind from birth. 2“Rabbi,” his disciples asked him, “why was this man born blind? Was it because of his own sins or his parents’ sins?”

3“It was not because of his sins or his parents’ sins,” Jesus answered. “This happened so the power of God could be seen in him. 4We must quickly carry out the tasks assigned us by the one who sent us. The night is coming, and then no one can work.

A test is meaningless if the outcome is pre-ordained.
So though we are born with sin (Augustine), and only God can empower us to overcome that native desire (Paul), it is still up to us whether we use that power. (John)

  • Does being Christian mean we attend church and then comfort ourselves by looking down our noses at others,
  • Or does it mean we get off our butts and use our God-given powers, putting them to good use.

According to John that final choice is ours.

1 Like
97

God created the earth as a dwelling place for his creation of mankind. God created men and gave them dominion over the earth. He told them to be fruitful and multiply - fill the earth with His people.

Since men have dominion over the earth, and if the earth is in a mess, a mess is what men have made of it.

The idea of dualism was picked up by the Jews in captivity which influenced the first corruption of the Scripture’s concept of the devil and satan.

This idea came from the old Babylon idea that there is a God of evil who somehow mirrors and stands in self-determining opposition to the God of love. This idea eventually crept into early Christianity.

Lactantius became fanatical with the idea and concluded that Jesus and Lucifer were originally both angels, sharing the same nature.

Chapters 1 and 2 of Hebrews are devoted to stressing the superiority of Jesus over the Angels, and how he had to be human to save the Israelites… He was a human and not an angel because He came to save humans and not angels.

That fact is overlooked because of a need by some to explain how Jesus and lucifer were somehow parallel with each other.

Lactantius also claimed that Jesus was of the same nature with lucifer. This caused a big problem because if that nature was capable of sinning and falling, then how can we be sure that Jesus won’t fall and the basis of sanctification fall as well?

The Babylonians assumed that the good god would always win out over the evil god. If there are two gods, why assume that one is bound to win?

Hebrews 2:14 “Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same nature, that through death he might destroy him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage. 16 For surely it is not with angels that he is concerned but with the descendants of Abraham. 17 Therefore he had to be made like his brethren in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make expiation for the sins of the people. 18 For because he himself has suffered and been tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted.”

The power of death (death was our enemy) was the devil (our enemy) By Jesus’ resurrection, he destroyed the power of death and hell (the grave). Believers in God never die. Jesus, our Savior, said so Himself.

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26 and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

98

The Septuagint - The Septuagint is a Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, also known as the Greek Old Testament.

(AI) The word “devil” is used ten times in the Septuagint, and two of those times are translated as diabolos. In English Bibles, the word is usually translated as “an adversary” nine times, and once as “an accuser”. In the Book of Numbers, 1 & 2 Samuel, and 1 Kings, it is translated nine times as “an adversary”. In some cases, it is translated as “Satan”.

The word “Satan” is used ten times in the Septuagint, with two of those instances translated as “diabolos”. In English Bibles, “Satan” is generally translated as “an accuser” once, or “an adversary” nine times. The Book of Numbers, 1 & 2 Samuel, and 1 Kings all use the word “adversary” nine times.

99

Believers in God. Yes. :wink:

1 Like
100

Yes. Jesus always pointed to God.

1 Like
101

That’s how I’ve always received the Good News from Jesus the Man.

Sure, he said, “No one comes to the Father except through Me.” but that doesn’t strike me as requiring that we worship Jesus the Man in order to worship God our Father.