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Why are you ascribing those words to me? Why are you angry that your testimony is treated with a similar scepticism to that with which you treat others’ testimonies? Do you think it might be possible that you may not be as secure in your beliefs as you claim to be?

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I read this hours ago and I am still thinking about it. (Thank you.)
In fact, I’ll probably think about this, off and on, for a very long time.

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You’re the Pharisee denying my experience while touting your own day dream fantasy as truth.

You’re the sinning little human pretending to be God’s voice.

You’re the one telling me lies about what God thinks.

You’re clearly the angry one, I’m the one laughing. :wink:

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It’s time to back off the personal stuff.

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Thank you, but I’ve already said my piece to the flailing Pharisees in the room and I’m one of the very few people here with the ability to let the other one have the last word. That will be proven true once again this morning. :wink:

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Taken as a whole, the OT tells us that again and again the humans got off of God’s path. Israel did 'A" and got invaded. Israel did “B” and ws thrown into civil strife splitting the country into 2 Heck at one point the church was keeping young male prostitutes in the Great Temple so local men could . . . Israel got conquered again and its leaders carried off to Babylon in chains.

In the NT one of the things the Epistles show us is as the apostles established church after church (in Corinth, in Thessalonica etc. time after time those churches grew leaders that commanded or advocated things God never did and the Epistle writers had to admonish them to change their (false) teachings

  • One church formed into communes and nearly went bankrupt
  • Once church shaped its weekly services around a great meal, but would not allow the poor to eat.
  • Another declared the old Jewish laws, compete with animal sacrifice, circumcision and Kosher diets had to be followed.

In each case the writers wrote for the purpose of telling them “You are wrong, this is not God’s way.”

The one thing we know for sure from the Bible is that people, including the established church again and again and again, get it wrong. Nothing in the Bible suggests that organized churches will suddenly be perfected in 21st century America of Internet and Walmart and McDonalds.

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Imagine a nation so full of themselves that they had to make excuses for why more powerful nations slapped them silly.

In each case, they were highly funded, organized institutions run by the elite Establishments of their time. The modern churches are all rich, just like the Pharisees were.

Agreed, and like every other time in the past when the religion of that age loses its way, something new comes along.

We have been in the Age of Pisces (The Fish) for 2,024 years now.

For ~2,160 years before that, in the Age of Aries (The Sheep) our Jewish predecessors were the new kids on the block.

Before them, it was ~2,160 of bull god worship during the Age of Taurus (The Bull).

In each of these historical ages, the religion matches the constellation.

The new hits become wildly popular, and people slowly forget the oldies. 'Round and 'round we go in this cyclic experience.

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Note I edited the “pre-Moses” part out of my statement (should have caught it in an earlier edit.)

Historically,
it became politically expedient for the early Kings of Israel to incoroprate other religions into their own so images of Ba’al and other icon Gods were placed in the the then-equivalent of the Vatican and those gods were worshipped side-by-side with the one we call God.

How could it get any worse?
Well, it became financially expedient to turn the then-equivalent of the Vatican into a commercial property and the most-profitable best-paying commerce at the time was to enslave young boys and rent them out as prostitutes for the local wealthy elite to enjoy.

Yeah, it got pretty bad and God was not happy.

1 Kings 14:24 (NIV)
24 There were even male shrine prostitutes in the land; the people engaged in all the detestable practices of the nations the Lord had driven out before the Israelites.

1 Kings 15:12 (NIV)
The Message: The Bible in Contemporary Language
He cleaned house: He got rid of the sacred prostitutes and threw out all the idols his predecessors had made.

Consider, for example this Introduction to the book of Kings it is written by the United States Council of Catholic bishops and, as academic religious essays go is widely-circulated.

The Books of Kings can be approached in several ways. They contain history and are an important source of information about the Israelite kingdoms. . . .

The multifaceted character of the work means that it has a variety of focal points. The historical events themselves, of course, are important, but the patterns according to which the author organizes those events give a unity to the author’s historical reconstruction. The northern kings are condemned without exception, and the royal line degenerates from the divine election of Jeroboam I through a succession of short-lived dynasties to the bloodbath of Jehu’s coup d’état, and finally dies out in a series of assassinations. . . . Judah’s kings, on the other hand, follow a cyclic pattern of infidelity followed by reform, with each reformer king (Asa, Joash, Hezekiah, Josiah) greater than the last. Unfortunately the apostate kings also progress in wickedness, until the evil of Manasseh is so great that even Josiah’s fidelity cannot turn away the Lord’s wrath . . .

If there is one lesson from the OT, it is that BC, the human church again and again became completely corrupt and neither its teachings nor its actions had anything to do with the will of God.

Hmm, well what about AD?
Surely Jesus put a stop to that, right?

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John 14: 5-14

5Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really know me, you will know b my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

8Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

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I believe one of the big problems is that churches became too big and then instituted a Central governing body to control all the rest. Like government, over time corruption creeps in and spread because each new church has to follow the original, especially if they wanted financial support. The intent was for each church to be an independent congregation following the doctrines of Christ which were given by inspiration in scripture and preserved by God. God doesn’t change and neither does his word. Local congregations then have the means to quickly spot heresy or sin within its ranks and deal with it the proper way.

The love of money is the root of all evil, and that is true today. Too many pastors and preachers are just in it for the money and preach a false gospel to itching ears.

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It is my opinion, that men err when they forget that God’s children are the church - we are the body of Christ. We are not an institution. God didn’t organize His people, He left each of us free to worship Him spontaneously from the heart.

It is good to meet and communicate with other children of God because we need each other but we don’t need to have to pledge allegiance to a manmade set of rules.

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The word devil does not occur at all in the Old Testament. Genesis is the beginning of everything, yet, Genesis does not mention “the” devil.

Through the OT, the one and only God is presented as "all-powerful, without equal and in no competition with any other force. The OT makes clear that any adversary to God’s Israel was under the control of God Himself.

Early Judaism spoke of the human tendency to evil and the tendency to good. This tendency to evil, was understood as being personified or symbolized by the devil.

Jews rejected the thought that angels had rebelled and especially the idea that the serpent in Genesis was satan. No fallen angel in Judaism.

“And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.” 1 Tim 2:14

Therefore, just as through one man sin enter into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned." Romans 5:12 Death spread. Death is separation from God. Adam and Eve were separated from God – put out of the Garden.

“Let no one say when he is tempted, I am tempted by God.” James 1:13

We are tempted by our own evil desires.

We sin all by our big self.

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God created man with a conscience. That’s the “law written in our hearts.”

Jesus was tempted like we are. It’s important to understand and appreciate the nature and work of Jesus. It was only because Jesus had our human nature - the devil, within Him that we can have the hope of justification.

By overcoming the desires of His own nature, Jesus was able to destroy the devil on the cross.

If what you say could possible be true and the devil is a personal being, then he no longer exists.

Hebrews 9:26 “Christ appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself” –

Hebrews 2:14 “Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same nature, that through death he might destroy him who has the power of death, that is, the devil,”

By his death, Jesus in prospect destroyed the body of sin. If not, we are still in our sins. Human nature with its potential to sin, in our bodies.

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Well, there’s the book of Job.

And doesn’t Chronicles 21 say that Satan enticed David to conduct a census of Israel?

By and large you’re right. Not a whole lot of writing about Satan in the OT, but he’s not absolutely devoid of mention.

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The Septuagint uses the Greek word diabolos to translate the Hebrew “satan,” devil and satan are parallel in meaning.

Samuel and Chronicles give parallel accounts but uses different languages. Samuel 24:1 “The Lord moved David against Israel” to make him take a census of the Isralites.

Parallel account in 1 Chronicles 2:1 “Satan stood up against Israel and moved David” to take census.

In one of the passages, God does the moving and in the other, satan does it.

I have to conclude that it is God acting as a “satan” or “adversary” to David.

The same thing is true with Job where God brought trials into his life.
Job said this about God: “With the strength of Your hand You oppose me.” 30:21 “You are acting as a satan against me” or again speaking of God, Job said: “I must appeal for mercy to my accuser - satan.”

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It depends of which word the translators choose to use.

The word “satan” just mean an adversary, a good person, even God Himself, can be called a “satan.” Jesus called Peter, satan. Matthew 16:22 "Get behind me, Satan… you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men."

The word satan does not necessarily refer to sin. IMO, it’s due to the use of the word in the language of the world relates it to sin.

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I cannot express how wholeheartedly I agree with this notion (of which it also applies to all institutions of power, both religious and secular).

Sure, if you want to believe that He’s coming back from the dead to become Violent Christ.

John had a psychedelic experience in 95 AD while in exile on Patmos, and now some people insist that a giant dragon with 7 heads is going to mysteriously emerge from the ocean, carrying an evil hooker. :man_shrugging:

There is definitely a reckoning coming, and it’s a product of “our” own making. It’s a lot like what happened to Israel’s very short-live regional glory.

God isn’t meddling in any of this; He doesn’t need to. He is experiencing it all right along with us though.

But more importantly than any of my personal opinions on these very worldly matters, my testimony is one of forgiveness and love.

That was my experience when in the Lord’s presence, not one of vengeance or petty judgements or ritualistic obligations or pious competitions.

The Lord loves the lowest among us no less than He loves us or those we perceive as our betters. We are all forgiven, we will all (eventually) forgive ourselves for what we’ve done to each other, and we’re all going Home to our Father. That’s the best news ever.

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Nothing in this existence emerged without the Lord first creating it. Everything is His, of Him, and Him alone.

Love exists, and so does Hate.

Happiness exists, and so does Misery.

Kindness exists, and so does Cruelty.

“Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked I will depart. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised.”

^My all-time favorite verse from any religion.

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I agree, Christians are the body of Christ, we are also referred to as his bride. We are not an institution per se, but that doesn’t mean we don’t have some characteristics of an institution. I view humanity as two and only two groups- saved and unsaved. Either a person has accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior and are bound for heaven, or they have not accepted Jesus Christ as their savior and are bound for Hell. To me, that is the single most important distinction. Within the two groups, there are many subgroups (or denominations in the Christian world)

For example, my subgroup is Baptist. However, I am not saved due to being a Baptist, I was not saved by or into the Baptist church. I am saved by faith because I believe that Jesus Christ, the only begotten son of God, freely died on the cross and shed his blood to pay the debt I owe for my sin. Any person who has likewise accepted Christ is saved and a part of the body of Christ. We don’t need to be unified, we ARE unified by the blood. As such, we certainly may worship spontaneously and by ourselves but typically we don’t. scripture says forsake not the assembling of yourselves together, and even more as we see the day approach.

I find strength h in fellowship and hearing the word preached…

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(I always learn so much when I do this.)
I was curious so I consulted Strong’s Concordance (the authority).

Short version: The Devil/Satan is mentioned 27 times in the OT, (11 of them outside of Job), & 73 times in the NT.
These are exclusive of indirect references, such as Genesis where an unnamed serpent makes mischief.

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1Chron2:1 and Job both use the same (Hebrew) word they are each variants of שָׂטָן (pronounced “Saw-Tawn”)
It is Strong’s entry #7854 and appears 27 times in the NASB where it is translated (to English)
18 times as “Satan”
8 times as “adversary” and
1 time as “accuser”
(Link 1)

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Matthew 4:1 (Temptation of Jesus in the desert) uses the Greek word διαβόλου (pronounced “dee-ab’-ol-os”) it is actually an adjective often used as a noun.
It is Strong’s entry 1228 and appears 37 times in the NASB where it is translated (to English)
34 times as “devil” and
3 times as "malicious gossips.
(Link 2)

3

Revelation 12:9 (War in Heaven) uses the word from Matthew and also uses Greek word Σατανᾶς
(pronounced "sat-an-as’ ")
It is Strong’s entry 4567 and appears 36 times in the NASB where it is translated (to English)
35 times as “Satan”
1 time as “Satan’s”
(Link 3)

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/7854.htm

https://biblehub.com/greek/1228.htm

https://biblehub.com/greek/4567.htm

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