Is everything pre-ordained?

I’m watching a Todd Friel video.

He’s an evangelical who is a Bible literalist, etc.

In the very beginning of this video he says, “Everything is pre-ordained.”

Presumably this is stated somewhere in the Bible, otherwise Friel wouldn’t claim it.

If everything is pre-ordained…then is not God making everyone do what he wants?

If there is wide-spread “cheating” going on (and of course it’s not “cheating”, it’s breaking the law, it’s a felony, it’s substantial jail time) is it because God wants there to be?

And so how can people be so snarky about the “drug addict” Hunter BIden and his stupidity in bringing some laptops to a computer shop instead of throwing them away, when that’s what God made him do? (No free will there, apparently.)

No free will anywhere, if God ordains that certain things happen. The people who are making the things happen that God wants to happen surely can have no free will in the matter.

Why are you accepting that premise. What has happened in your own lifetime that has you wondering whether it was all preordained?

I’m not very religious and I don’t believe in the pre-ordained concept. It’s hard to believe that someone is pre-ordained to live in poverty, suffer abuses, be a serial killer or die violently. If that’s the case, why do anything? Just sit around and wait for things to happen!

This is yet another intellectual exercise.

Todd Friel certainly believes it. Other people - preachers with very large congregations like John McArthur, believe it.

I wonder if anyone believes it here.

And if so, do those individuals nevertheless condemn the people that God is using as his instruments?

The premise is wrong, especially coming from you. God has the ability of working with what is. Think about it. I am a teacher. I don’t make people ignorant in order to teach them. My grandfathers repaired things. They did not break things in order to repair them.

Do dogs preordain fleas in order to wear a nice collar and get a bath? What in this world (other than the Democrat Party :wink: ) works on preordaining what happens? All of us, nature included, works with whatever happens.

Nothing is pre-ordained. It’s all happening at the same Eternal Now.

Well, you don’t believe in preordination.

So you don’t believe in the Book of Revelation?

The Book of Revelation is a glorious account of God’s ultimate victory written in Apocalyptic Literature format. The metaphors and extravagant symbolism are the best ever!

The Book of Revelation sets forth the account of early Christian persecution and heartens those who might be losing heart that as we go through even the hardest of times, it is God and goodness who emerge victorious.

Even though it is an account about first century events, it is a book for all ages. Love it!

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If that were the case, everything would be preordained.

It simply means everything is. There is no “pre” in an Eternal Now.

The Lord knows all and knows already what you’ll choose but…the choice is still up to you.

So He knew that Adam and Eve would choose to eat from the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil before he even put the tree in the Garden?

Yes. That is my understanding.

No. Everything is not preordained. The future does not exist for anyone, including God, to know. However, personalities, including God are aware of the linear nature of time, and are able to imagine possible futures, and are able to plan and strategies toward some specific future outcomes if we choose. God has the added advantage of omnipotence, so if there is a specific outcome he desires, he is able to maneouvre events toward that specific end. Those long term goals I believe are far fewer than predeterminists assume.

I am certain I have encountered Protestant who believe each person’s salvation/damnation has been pre-ordained but I’d wager most do not seem to believe (as Friel does) that God has also pre-ordained such minutia as election outcomes.

Interestingly within the first 30 seconds, the video’s host declares that the results of the election lawsuits etc. have been pre-ordained, but that along the way you and I and the other listeners get to decide whether to glorify God or not.

Apparently he believes God pre-prdains somethings (like election outcomes) but God allows us free will and thus other things (whether we glorify God or not) are not pre-ordained. I wonder where he draws the line?

Hi Tom,
My understanding is that Friel (video’s host) is off the reservation.
SOME Protestant denominations, interpret the words of Martin Luther (founder of Protestanism) to mean that one’s salvation has been pre-determined, but they do not extend that also believe God as predetermined such things as election outcomes and whether one lives in poverty.

"Let it be known there is a fountain
That was not made by the hands of men

"There is a road, no simple highway
Between the dawn and the dark of night
And if you go no one may follow
That path is for your steps alone"

          - Ripple, by the Grateful Dead

To my knowledge, there is only one major word religion (Chinese Taoism) which puts fate at its center. Taoists believe in fate the way Buddhists and Hindus believe in karma. But even Taoists do not believe in a total predestination of outcomes.

They believe like is like a highway, or a dog run, we can travel 30 feet to the right or thirty feet to the left, but out path will always roughly parallel the road.

In practical terms, that means a child raised poverty can become a rags-to-riches millionaire, but, in good ways or bad, he will always be substantially different than a silver-spoon millionaire.