If it takes intelligence…

If it takes intelligence to understand how ecosystems on a planet, a solar system, even the universe come about and then work together, isn’t it more likely that intelligence, not randomness, is also behind how all these things are connected?

This doesn’t seem that science discusses this. If it takes intelligence to understand, then doesn’t it follow it takes intelligence to build what it is we are working to understand?

I do not believe in a genii-type God, who blinks or snaps His figurative fingers and something appears in seconds, minutes, or even a day. Besides, the word the original Hebrew uses for day is the same word it uses for great spans of time. It basically covers any amount of time that has a beginning and an end.

If everyone lets go of the idea that the planet came about in seven days, can we explore the idea that intelligence is more than likely what is behind the formation and evolution of the universe and our planet?

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No need to let go of the seven days. A “Day” is based upon the time it takes the earth to complete one rotation. Since God created the heavens and the earth, before the earth was created, there wouldnt have been a day. Further, our God is not constrained by time. We will never be able to understand an infinite God with our finite mind in this lifetime. When we appear before him and give an account of our time on this earth, everything will be more clear.

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I strongly believe that God isn’t constrained by our concept of time. The 6 days of creation to God could be hundreds of thousands to a few million years to us.

To answer the questions(s) you need to first define “intelligence”. The definition I think is most relevant is that “intelligence” is a set of rules that define the processing of inputs.

Biological systems derive their intelligence from their DNA and the systems that DNA produces. In this framework, all biological systems are “intelligent”, even a blade of grass. This intelligence is generally not “random”, except for some of the processes that create mutations in genetic sequencing/reproduction (of which I am skeptical - aside, it wouldn’t surprise me if there’s some sort of mnemonic system in DNA that determines genetic distributions during reproduction).

Cosmological entities like solar systems are outcomes of instruction sets, namely of the fundamental forces of physics (strong, weak, electromagnetic and gravitational). These are the “instruction sets” or “intelligence” that produce these systems. These forces are also not “random” - they can be precisely studied and measured.

In this framework, anything non-static (which is everything, except fundamental physical law) is an outcome of an instruction set. What is seemingly “random” to a human mind, is most likely due to there being so many inputs, that a human mind cannot fully track or remember the states of the system over time.

The real question that Intelligent Design proponents most of the time want to ask is, what was the “first” instruction set, how was it created (if at all) and what its properties are.

Like other religious mythologies, it becomes “personified” into a human worldview - like the OP, describing intelligence in terms of “understanding” how objects of the world operate. A conscious being is not required for intelligence to exist. A conscious being is only required for awareness of said “intelligence”.

Moreover, if every intelligent object needs a creator, then the creator of those objects needs a creator. This recursive loop breaks the premise. If one admits there are exceptions for God needing a creator, then one admits intelligence does not require intelligence to be created, or that intelligence can exist in itself with no creation required (unless God is not intelligent and used a non-intelligent force to create intelligence)

Given the above, it’s more likely that a duality exists in the fundamental nature of reality. Just like light and dark, there’s “conscious” intelligence (understanding) and non-conscious intelligence (physical law). Both of these systems of intelligence have a fundamental base state that is uncreated. Maybe they eternally “dance” with eachother to create our realities.

In the end, there’s really no point trying to understand where it all “came from” - after all we are limited by our own human intelligence.

There’s certainly no point in just labeling it as “God” and acting like we’ve solved something. It’s just the limit of human intelligence. Biological systems in our brain are built to operate with inputs and outputs, where every output requires an input. We won’t escape it, and any attempt to declare God, is simply an output of us reaching our own limit of intelligence, and our brain trying to fill the input gap.

“GOD” is the brain’s conscious limit of intelligence.


I agree. It would be equally as accurate to translate the Hebrew to, During the first phase, this occurred…During the second phase, etc. The last thing that needs our attention is debating the 24 hour time period because a translation that could have easily been ‘eon’ or ‘phase’ was translated as ‘day’. Or we could try to understand that word as the ancient Hebrews did–a period of time with a beginning and an end. ‘Day’, of course is an obvious picture of a time period with a beginning and an end–and Hebrew is a language of pictures.

All you say is true. None-the-less so many believe 24 hours and that’s it. If we want science to consider intelligence (and they can do that without getting into belief) people also need to be open to the realization that the word we now see as ‘day’ was likely millions of years (when calculated by today’s measurement of time.

Yeah but your username promotes your thought that you are always right and everyone else is wrong so I find it difficult to believe you’re right about anything much. :blush: You simply have an opinion about God, just like everyone else.

Regardless of ones belief or non belief, culturally I hope the country remains a predominantly Christian country while I am alive. I have seen the new religions in the form of politics and identity and they scare me a lot more than the occasional Mormon knocking on my door asking if I would like to attend their church. A Christian group came in a few years ago and removed a huge tree in my front yard for me for free.

The new religions of identity politics and intersectionality would as soon cast me out to live a life of perpetual shame and guilt without forgiveness.

As Ace Ventura would say.

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Light was created on day one. A certain number (n) of wavelengths of light at any particular frequency will travel past a point § in space every second. Hence 24 hours would be detectable by God as the time for n times 60 times 60 times 24 wavelengths to pass point p.

Is it essential that Day One (and any of the following days) were completed in a 24 hour period?

Intelligence, awareness, consciousness, etc., all come from the universe itself. They are inherently built in, and were always a part of it.

Time is not relevant, nor is it linear. 7 days is just another in a long list of metaphors spanning from cover to cover.

I was responding to komobu’s argument against a 24 hour day, which was not a valid argument imho.

I have a problem with the randomness of how prayers are answered or ignored. Why does a 60 year old drunk get a life saving liver transplant and a three year old girl allowed to die from leukemia. Sorry. Sometimes God pissed me off. And I have no problem saying it.

To clarify: Are you saying that in your example, you prayed to God that a sixty-year-old drunk be given a liver transplant, and that a three year old girl be cured of leukemia? The drunk you prayed for did, indeed, get a liver transplant, but the little girl died? Was it an entire liver transplant, or was a only portion of a liver transplanted? That has been your own personal experience with prayer?

Also, I probably should remember, but are you now a person of faith, a person who has no belief, or a person who once held a belief but no longer?

I will try to answer your question, but it would help me if I had some background.

In our finite mind and experience, time may actually be faster than we perceive it to be.

Our perceptions of time is just a unit of measure based on a solar rotation which in reality it continuous and never ending. Only superficially distinguished when the rotation is exposed to the sun ray. When in reality it the same continuous never ending rotation.

So using our standard of time based on planetary rotation, technically we are still in our first day because its still the same rotation thats ultimately continuous.

No it does not follow that it takes intelligence.

And science does discuss this…that complexity is actually an emergent phenomenon that can arise from simplicity.

It seems odd to me that the author specifically says, after each creation event, “and the evening and morning were the first day”, “and the evening and the morning were the second day”, and so on. Evening and morning are periods of time we humans recognize and use today and are separated by roughly a 12 hour period of darkness, then a 12 hour period of light. But, when the seventh day comes, the authors format changes. Why did the author not say something like " On the first day God created…" “On the second day God created” etc., ending with " " and on the seventh day God rested"? It would have been more consistent and clear that the time frames were not 24 hour days.

Then there is the Sabbath issue. One of the ten commandments God gave Moses at Mt. Sinai was to Remember the Sabbath DAY to keep it holy, on THAT DAY you shall do no work. God identified not an indeterminate time period with a beginning and end, but one specific 24 hour time period, that begins with the evening and ends with the morning, just as the days of creation are described in the beginning. The Sabbath is the 7th day, and is the culmination of the Previous 6 days described in the Genesis creation. The Sabbath DAY doesn’t fit in with the timeframe you believe is actually true in the creation account.

There are many times when God commands his people to celebrate an event over multiple days. If the Sabbath that God commanded them to keep was actually one of 7 equal but indeterminate time periods, why would God command them to keep it weekly, for just 24 hours, as opposed to keeping it for a period of time more representative of how long he actually rested?

Creation not only points to an unimaginable intelligence, but doing it in 7 days points to an unimaginable power. God created the laws of Science and Physics, they bend to HIS will, not the other way around. Isn’t that a good definition of a miracle?

What is often forgotten is that the Hebrew language is not subjective like most languages are today. It uses visual pictures. There was an early part of the phase; there was a latter part of the phase.

It is not a problem to me if people want to take this literally, because I don’t think it matters an iota in the greater scheme of things. I am merely pointing out that the known science of today agrees that more with the translation of ‘phase’ than ‘day’.

Keep in mind, the Hebrew (which only has about six thousand words) uses the same picture whether it is describing 24 hours or eons. Moses lived in an entirely different era. Remember to God a thousand years is like a day, and a day is like a thousand years. Yet no one takes this to mean that mankind’s day of rest and worship should in actuality be a thousand years. Context.

Again, if people choose to believe God created everything in 144 human hours, it doesn’t matter an iota–unless that person is following physical facts. The unimaginable power of God remains the same, but the care and time He takes in creation makes for unimaginable awe.

For example, suppose I could do grow a beautiful garden with a blink of an eye. Suppose it takes you months to prepare the soil, design the flower beds, and carefully tend the growing seedlings until at last they come into bloom. Isn’t it more accurate to say I used very little power (how much power does it take to blink an eye) as opposed to the amount of time, energy, and sweat you poured into the same project?