Discussion of "Republic" - is the US?

[WuWei]

Good post John.

[fallenturtle]

@johnwk2

In case you missed it, our federal Constitution guarantees a “Republican Form of Government”. Do you have any idea what is meant by a “Republican Form of Government”, as stated during our Constitution’s framing and ratification debates?

Let me personally assure you our founders were fully aware of the violent and despotic nature of democracy.

And just what did our Founding Fathers think of “democracy”? Madison, in Federalist No. 10 says in reference to “democracy” they

“…have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths. Theoretic politicians, who have patronized this species of government, have erroneously supposed that by reducing mankind to a perfect equality in their political rights, they would, at the same time, be perfectly equalized and assimilated in their possessions, their opinions, and their passions.”

And during the Convention which framed our federal Constitution, Elbridge Gerry and Roger Sherman, delegates from Massachusetts and Connecticut, urged the Convention to create a system which would eliminate “the evils we experience,” saying that those “evils . . .flow from the excess of democracy…”

And, then there was John Adams, a principle force in the American Revolutionary period who also pointed out “democracy will envy all, contend with all, endeavor to pull down all; and when by chance it happens to get the upper hand for a short time, it will be revengeful, bloody, and cruel…”

And Samuel Adams, a signer of the Declaration of Independence and favoring the new Constitution as opposed to democracy declared: "Democracy never lasts long” . . . “It soon wastes, exhausts and murders itself.”. . . “There was never a democracy that ‘did not commit suicide.’”

And during the Constitutional Convention, Hamilton stated: “We are a Republican Government. Real liberty is never found in despotism or in the extremes of Democracy.”

Democracy, or majority rule vote, as the Founding Fathers well knew, whether that majority rule is practiced directly by the people or by elected representatives, if not restrained by specific limitations and particular guarantees in which the unalienable rights of mankind are put beyond the reach of political majorities, have proven throughout history to eventually result in nothing less than an unbridled mob rule system susceptible to the wants and passions of a political majority imposing its will upon those who may be outvoted, and would result in the subjugation of unalienable rights, and especially rights associated with property ownership.

What was the point of all that? Without the EC we’d still be a republic.

@johnwk2

Of course, in your world, fallenturtle, property ownership is determined by majority vote . . . “From each according to their ability to pay, to each who needs help living a decent life.” ___ fallenturtle

No, but your mischaracterization is noted.

[Auto129]

America, without an electoral college, is still a republic.

[WuWei]

@Auto129

America, without an electoral college, is still a republic.

What makes it so?

[johnwk2]

@fallenturtle

@johnwk2

In case you missed it, our federal Constitution guarantees a “Republican Form of Government”. Do you have any idea what is meant by a “Republican Form of Government”, as stated during our Constitution’s framing and ratification debates?

Let me personally assure you our founders were fully aware of the violent and despotic nature of democracy.

And just what did our Founding Fathers think of “democracy”? Madison, in Federalist No. 10 says in reference to “democracy” they

“…have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths. Theoretic politicians, who have patronized this species of government, have erroneously supposed that by reducing mankind to a perfect equality in their political rights, they would, at the same time, be perfectly equalized and assimilated in their possessions, their opinions, and their passions.”

And during the Convention which framed our federal Constitution, Elbridge Gerry and Roger Sherman, delegates from Massachusetts and Connecticut, urged the Convention to create a system which would eliminate “the evils we experience,” saying that those “evils . . .flow from the excess of democracy…”

And, then there was John Adams, a principle force in the American Revolutionary period who also pointed out “democracy will envy all, contend with all, endeavor to pull down all; and when by chance it happens to get the upper hand for a short time, it will be revengeful, bloody, and cruel…”

And Samuel Adams, a signer of the Declaration of Independence and favoring the new Constitution as opposed to democracy declared: "Democracy never lasts long” . . . “It soon wastes, exhausts and murders itself.”. . . “There was never a democracy that ‘did not commit suicide.’”

And during the Constitutional Convention, Hamilton stated: “We are a Republican Government. Real liberty is never found in despotism or in the extremes of Democracy.”

Democracy, or majority rule vote, as the Founding Fathers well knew, whether that majority rule is practiced directly by the people or by elected representatives, if not restrained by specific limitations and particular guarantees in which the unalienable rights of mankind are put beyond the reach of political majorities, have proven throughout history to eventually result in nothing less than an unbridled mob rule system susceptible to the wants and passions of a political majority imposing its will upon those who may be outvoted, and would result in the subjugation of unalienable rights, and especially rights associated with property ownership.

What was the point of all that? Without the EC we’d still be a republic.

@johnwk2

Of course, in your world, fallenturtle, property ownership is determined by majority vote . . . “From each according to their ability to pay, to each who needs help living a decent life.” ___ fallenturtle

No, but your mischaracterization is noted.

Hmmm… I see you never answered the question asked.

My mischaracterization? Please explain your charge.

JWK

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, Article IV, Section 4, U.S. Constitution . . . not a communist/socialist democracy!

[PurpnGold]

@johnwk2

Hmmm… I see you never answered the question asked.

My mischaracterization? Please explain your charge.

JWK

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, Article IV, Section 4, U.S. Constitution . . . not a communist/socialist democracy!

What you never explained in that dissertation, is how does getting rid of the electoral college make us a democracy?

We popular vote for Senate, state and local. Are those election processes Democratic?

[johnwk2]

@PurpnGold

We popular vote for Senate,

Yes. The 17th Amendment allows for the election of senators by voters in the state they represent, instead of the state legislature electing their senators. And this was a crushing blow to our Republican Form of Government which silenced each particular state’s unique interests in favor of the whims and fancies of the public at large in the various United States. The adoption of the 17th Amendment was an indirect attack on the Tenth Amendment and the reserved powers of the states and people therein.

Perhaps the following video will give you a better grasp of the subject:

17th Amendment: Missouri Senate debate on the 17th amendment (Todd Akin's response)

JWK

Our domestic and socialist revolutionaries, which now control the Democrat Party Leadership, want elderly American citizens, who were forced to pay into Medicare all their lives, to surrender and share their Medicare Trust fund with millions of foreigners who have invaded America’s borders. LINK

[PurpnGold]

Thanks but you missed my point.

What is it about a popular vote for President, that would make us a pure democracy and not a republic?

[johnwk2]

@PurpnGold

What you never explained in that dissertation, is how does getting rid of the electoral college make us a democracy?

It’s an incremental move toward "democracy’ [mob rule government], just as was the adoption of the 17th Amendment.

JWK

Today’s Fifth Column media ___ MSNBC, NEW YORK TIMES, CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, WASHINGTON POST, ATLANTIC MAGAZINE, New York Daily News, Time, ETC., and their countless Yellow Journalists who are socialist domestic revolutionaries ___ make Russia’s old Pravda, [an organ of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union] look like propaganda amateurs.

[PurpnGold]

@johnwk2

It’s an incremental move toward "democracy’ [mob rule government], just as was the adoption of the 17th Amendment.

Not trying the slippery slop argument.

Going popular vote for President, is not on its own, moving us to a democracy? Right?

[johnwk2]

@PurpnGold

@johnwk2

It’s an incremental move toward "democracy’ [mob rule government], just as was the adoption of the 17th Amendment.

Not trying the slippery slop argument.

Going popular vote for President, is not on its own, moving us to a democracy? Right?

Going popular vote for the President is most definitely moving toward direct democracy with regard to electing the president, and subjects the least populated states to the will of the most populated states.

JWK

The unavoidable truth is, our socialist revolutionaries, Joe Biden and Kamala Harris, have a plan for “free” college tuition, and cancelling student loan debt. The problem is, it will be paid for by taxing millions of college graduates who worked for and paid their own way through college and are now trying to finance their own economic needs.

[PurpnGold]

@johnwk2

Going popular vote for the President is most definitely moving toward direct democracy with regard to electing the president, and subjects the least populated states to the will of the most populated states.

More slippery slope…

Does going popular vote for President make us a Democracy?

“States” don’t matter in popular vote. A Trump vote in CA is the same as a Trump vote in Wyoming.

[conan]

No it isn’t the same.

[johnwk2]

@PurpnGold

More slippery slope…

You deflections are noted.

JWK

Today’s Fifth Column media ___ MSNBC, NEW YORK TIMES, CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, WASHINGTON POST, ATLANTIC MAGAZINE, New York Daily News, Time, ETC., and their countless Yellow Journalists who are socialist domestic revolutionaries ___ make Russia’s old Pravda, [an organ of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union] look like propaganda amateurs.

[fallenturtle]

@johnwk2

Hmmm… I see you never answered the question asked.

Was there a question somewhere in that wall of text. You tend to just copy and paste the same ■■■■ over and over again so I tend to just skim you’re really long posts.

@johnwk2

My mischaracterization? Please explain your charge.

I’ve never said all property ownership is determined by a simple majority vote.

[johnwk2]

fallenturtle

I see you still have not answered the question asked.

JWK

Our domestic and socialist revolutionaries, which now control the Democrat Party Leadership, want elderly American citizens, who were forced to pay into Medicare all their lives, to surrender and share their Medicare Trust fund with millions of foreigners who have invaded America’s borders. LINK

[PurpnGold]

@conan

No it isn’t the same.

Is a Trump voter in CA voting for a different Trump than a Trump voter in WY?

[conan]

Voter in CA has nothing to do with WY…two completely different states.

[GWH]

Yes, and there are only two ways to change that. Amend the constitution or move to Wyoming.

[fallenturtle]

@johnwk2

Yes. The 17th Amendment allows for the election of senators by voters in the state they represent, instead of the state legislature electing their senators. And this was a crushing blow to our Republican Form of Government which silenced each particular state’s unique interests in favor of the whims and fancies of the public at large in the various United States. The adoption of the 17th Amendment was an indirect attack on the Tenth Amendment and the reserved powers of the states and people therein.

So the state legislatures represent unique interests of the state that the state citizens don’t? That seems odd since the state legislature is elected by these same state citizens.