Alfie Evans rides off into the sunset, err, well, not exactly

[MoleUK]

@WildRose

And yet, sometimes they miraculously do recover.

Nothing miraculous about misdiagnosis.

Doctors get things wrong. But you still have to trust their medical expertise at some point.

[WildRose]

No, giving oxygen is “palliative care”.

When Is Palliative Care Appropriate?

Removing it was simply a way to attempt to expedite his death.

[WildRose]

4 doctors all got it wrong.

And we’re then supposed to blindly accept whatever a doctor tells us?

You’ve talked yourself into a deep, dark, hole.

[MoleUK]

Offering an overdose of painkillers is palliative care. It kills the patient regardless.

[MoleUK]

@WildRose

4 doctors all got it wrong.

And we’re then supposed to blindly accept whatever a doctor tells us?

You’ve talked yourself into a deep, dark, hole.

Not blindly, no.

Medical malpractice is the 2nd or 3rd leading cause of death in the US. You think I have far more faith in the judgement of medical professionals than I actually do.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2016/05/03/researchers-medical-errors-now-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-united-states/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.a1b3d63ccdde

[WildRose]

I’m not assuming anything, I’m reading your posts.

Malpractice doesn’t even make the top 10 causes of death in the US.

The top 10 leading causes of death in the United States

[Joanne]

@WildRose

And yet, sometimes they miraculously do recover.

@MoleUK

@Joanne

Would you do me a favor and look at this link? I don’t know how to post the picture here.

Look at Alfie in his parents arms, and then say he’s a “meat puppet strapped to medical machinery”.

https://twitter.com/dianemontagna/status/988669115970850822

He has no brain function and an incurable degenerative neurological disease, Joanne. He’s dead. The parents don’t want to accept that, and I would never expect them to.

Many people who have loved ones in comas swear they respond to stimuli when they are doing nothing of the sort. It’s an entirely understandable but unfortunately incorrect belief.

'Miracle recovery' of teen declared brain dead by four doctors

What an amazing story! So glad he’s doing well. And it’s one example proving the fact doctors aren’t always right.

[MoleUK]

@WildRose

I’m not assuming anything, I’m reading your posts.

Malpractice doesn’t even make the top 10 causes of death in the US.

That’s going by the old criteria that didn’t group/report medical malpractice correctly. 250k might be lowballing it as well, other estimates are putting it closer to 400k.

Doctors fought those numbers for years as they figured it couldn’t possibly be that high, but it’s widely accepted as accurate now.

I believe the CDC may be changing how they collect the data in the next few years.

[MoleUK]

@Joanne

What an amazing story! So glad he’s doing well. And it’s one example proving the fact doctors aren’t always right.

They were with Charlie, and that’s exactly what this case is reminding me of.

[Joanne]

@MoleUK

@WildRose

And yet, sometimes they miraculously do recover.

Nothing miraculous about misdiagnosis.

Doctors get things wrong. But you still have to trust their medical expertise at some point.

But why deny them the chance to take the boy to Italy for medical care? It is THEIR child, NOT the governments!!

If and when the boy dies, I hope the parents to sue. However, this being the UK, they probably have no right to do that, as the government in its wisdom knows what is best for the child. (sarcasm obviously)

Maybe if the hospitals face legal action they won’t be so quick to do this again. It’s just a short time ago they did this to another family.

[MoleUK]

@Joanne

But why deny them the chance to take the boy to Italy for medical care? It is THEIR child, NOT the governments!!

If and when the boy dies, I hope the parents to sue. However, this being the UK, they probably have no right to do that, as the government in its wisdom knows what is best for the child. (sarcasm obviously)

Maybe if the hospitals face legal action they won’t be so quick to do this again. It’s just a short time ago they did this to another family.

The Doctors were right in the Charlie Gard case. The doctor that offered a supposedly experimental treatment had to later admit that he had never examines Charlie or his medical data, and if he had he would have never offered his treatment as it wouldn’t have worked.

The Doctors primary concern is Alfie, not the parents. The father is insisting that Alfie is healthy, that should tell you where his mind is at.

[Joanne]

@Joanne

And

@MoleUK

@Joanne

What an amazing story! So glad he’s doing well. And it’s one example proving the fact doctors aren’t always right.

They were with Charlie, and that’s exactly what this case is reminding me of.

This story is big news everywhere, and the coverage has not been favorable to the hospital and UK government. And I don’t just mean from sources where I would expect.

[WildRose]

No you’re quoting a single study in which they say that medical errors “may” be a contributing factor in up to 1/3 of deaths, not malpractice.

that means at some point the patient may have had a misdiagnosis, missed diagnosis, given the wrong medication, not given the best or most appropriate medication etc. yada, yada, yada.

Again, see this report from CDC.

nvsr64_02.pdf

See page five.

Yet again, medical malpractice doesn’t even make the top 15.

[Joanne]

@MoleUK

@Joanne

But why deny them the chance to take the boy to Italy for medical care? It is THEIR child, NOT the governments!!

If and when the boy dies, I hope the parents to sue. However, this being the UK, they probably have no right to do that, as the government in its wisdom knows what is best for the child. (sarcasm obviously)

Maybe if the hospitals face legal action they won’t be so quick to do this again. It’s just a short time ago they did this to another family.

The Doctors were right in the Charlie Gard case. The doctor that offered a supposedly experimental treatment had to later admit that he had never examines Charlie or his medical data, and if he had he would have never offered his treatment as it wouldn’t have worked.

The Doctors primary concern is Alfie, not the parents. The father is insisting that Alfie is healthy, that should tell you where his mind is at.

Well I’m stating the very obvious, but when a child is involved it’s the parents who make medical decisions.

I agree Alfie is not healthy. Denial is a very strong thing. Nevertheless, there are cases that were considered hopeless and yet something miraculous occurred. And doctors are not always right. Italy has offered to take him and his parents the UK government has nothing to lose by granting the request. They are being treated like prisoners.

Obviously you did not click on that link I provided that had a picture of Alfie in his mother’s arms.

[Joanne]

Alfie belongs to his PARENTS. Not the hospital. Not a judge. Not the government.

His PARENTS should be making medical decisions, and their wishes should be granted.

This is evil. No one will ever convince me otherwise.

[WuWei]

@MoleUK

Because they believe any further treatment is unethical and/or cruel.

There comes a point where Doctors will over-rule the wishes of the parent in favor of what they believe is in the best interest of their patient, obviously we disagree on where that line lies.

Doctors are by no means infallible, but I’d trust the judgement of his doctors and specialists more than the judgement of his parents here.

Government ethics over parents’.

[WuWei]

@MoleUK

It is considered unethical to mistreat a corpse, let alone a breathing one.

He’s not a corpse. There’s no such thing as a breathing corpse.

[reflechissez]

@Joanne

@MoleUK

@WildRose

He isn’t dead until his heart stops and he can’t be resuscitated.

He’s brain-dead. A meat-puppet strapped to medical machinery.

To believe otherwise is to delude oneself.

Would you do me a favor and look at this link? I don’t know how to post the picture here.

Look at Alfie in his parents arms, and then say he’s a “meat puppet strapped to medical machinery”.

https://twitter.com/dianemontagna/status/988669115970850822

Emotional appeal does not change the facts.

[party-free]

In situations like this are always tough, but I tend to side with the parents in this particular case. If they had already been allowed to take the child to Italy to get the treatment they want to try, chances are they already would have seen it not work and would have let the child pass.

What worries me in situations like this is, as others have mentioned, if we get into a Charlie Gard situation where the parents are willing to listen to any quack offering them hope when there is very likely none.

[Joanne]

Alfie has already proven the doctors are wrong. He’s been breathing on his own now for many hours. At least one Member of Parliament has offered support for the parents.

There is going to be an emergency meeting now with the parents. Many people are praying they will be able to take their son to Italy.