You guys like WWII Tanks?

Tiger 2s were even better, the sloped armor was an improvement.

They were originally designed as breakthrough tanks. Official US doctrine was that the tank destroyer force (both motorized and pull behind carriage guns) was to handle tank combat while the Shermans exploited breakthroughs and hit rear areas.

Problem was that those situations rarely ever happened on the western front. And the tank destroyer forces were never around when the infantry needed them. So the Sherman got pressured into a role it was never designed for and the appalling losses that came with that.

75mm Shermans were useless against tigers and were effective against Panthers only at near point blank range. 76mm Shermans were decent if they could hit the Panther or Tigers flanks or rear armor. The fireflies were extremely effective but their barrels were so distinctive that German tanks and tank destroyers poured fire on them immediately as soon as they saw them.

Yeah, I have seen that as well. My personal feeling is that it was too late regardless. The Germans had already lost the war.

But yeah, the Mk IV was a match for the T34, but never mounted the 88, which was truly a German wonder weapon.

Finally, only about 9,000 Mk IV’s were built. So is doubtful that dropping the Panthers and Tigers would have resulted in a tide turning number of tanks, that were slowly being out gunned.

It was better but it did suffer from Germany’s late war production issues.

That and German differentials really sucked as the war went on. The HL230 engine could last 800 to 1000km. The transmissions were pretty solid most of the time. But their final drives were complete ass. Panthers lasted only about 70km before the final drive grenaded itself. Late war tigers weren’t much better.

The Pershings were America’s answer the the heavy German tanks and I understand the few that saw combat were a match to the best the Germans had.

Germany lost the war in December 1941.

They failed to take Moscow and destroy the Red Army. They suffered appalling casualties they couldn’t fully replace during the Moscow operation.

The best they could have hoped for after the failure at a Moscow was a negotiated settlement. Had both sides had sensible leadership, that’s probably what would have happened. But Hitler and Stalin were very unreasonable men so the conflict was going to end in only one way.

Agreed, but: too slow and required too much fuel, which was a critical problem for the Germans for most of the war.

Flipside is not producing Tigers would not have resulted in a tide-turning number of IV’s or V’s.

So yeah, to hell with it. Build that bad boy.

They were very good tanks. The 90mm was a brilliant cannon. Superior to the 88 in some ways.

I disagree, Germany lost the war by opening a second front. They needed to knock Britain out of the war before taking on the Russians.

Whoa! Don’t forget the entirely unnecessary declaration of war on the U.S.!

That would have been preferable. But I do think the Wehrmacht could have pulled it off had they been able to destroy the Red Army and take Moscow.

But opening the second front was stupid. Bismarck spent his entire life attempting to keep Germany out of a two front war. And both Wilhelm and Hitler said “screw that idea” and went for it anyway twice in twenty years.

It was unnecessary but I feel like we would have gotten involved in Europe anyway.

Most of the big wigs in Washington and the Department of War considered Germany the bigger threat from the second the war broke out.


But Russia isn’t Belgium, and I doubt Stalin would have called it quits if Moscow fell. In addition, remember that the Russians were busy moving their factories far east where the Germans would never have been able to reach them. And then General Space for Time begins his work.

But, as has been noted, Hitler was a mad man, and taking Russia was essential to him.

Stalin wouldn’t have called it quits but Moscow wasn’t the real prize. The Red Army’s last decent divisions were the real prize.

But Hitler was stupid and changed his mind constantly. He wasted time at Kursk, Kiev, and Leningrad. By the time the Germans got to Moscow, they were months behind schedule. Russia’s greatest asset, their god awful winters, were in full swing. And Germany wasn’t prepared for that at all.

For sure, but what does the European theater look like without Americans in 1943? Torch is pushed back or never attempted, maybe Rommel gets Egypt solving Hitler’s fuel problem, and knocking Italy out of the war is delayed or cancelled.

An enormous blunder.

I think we would have declared war on Germany on January 1st 1942 had they not declared war first.

I doubt we would have waited any longer than that.

I don’t know if taking Moscow would have ended the war. The Russians have probably just moved their government to the Urals like they did their factories.

I think the only way the Germans could have won is if Japan joined the Germans by invading from the East. That would have tied down the Russians and prevented them from sending reinforcements to fight the Germans.

Respectfully disagree. The Russian’s best divisions were the Manchurian garrison. 17 divisions of fresh veteran troops, geared for winter, and arriving at the end of 1941/beginning of 1942.

BUT: America was an isolationist country, who would want vengeance on Japan, but may not have supported or understood a DoW on Germany

Remember the movie “Pink Submarine”? A sub under maintenance was getting a new paint job, but the yard didn’t have enough red lead primer so they made up the difference with white lead paint. Then they got called back to duty before the grey top coat could be applied. Thus a pink submarine. Maybe that’s what happened here. :wink: