Will almighty Jesus/Yahweh say that he saved us all, or just some?


That’s what you see through your prism.

If you wanted to believe in God, you would do any number of things. Foremost would be not to pretend to create him as you imagine.

For the record, Pharisees and Scribes saw miracles from Jesus directly and still chose not to believe.


Yeah, I figured that would elicit a response. What I meant is logically that Paul’s experience would induce a belief response from most people. Force is too strong a word.

There is some truth is me creating God as I imagine him. Perhaps we are all guilty of that a bit.

If I saw a miracle, I would like to think I would believe. I would love to believe in a God with an afterlife and all.


One approach is to seek what God can do for us–and to be sure He is actually doing it. This, despite the advice not to put God to the test. Testing God is like choosing the path through a maze that leads to a dead end.

Then there is Paul’s approach. Paul was so zealous to serve God and do God’s will that he was doing all in his power to stomp out what he saw was an affront to God–Christianity. Paul’s experience was not due to testing God, but from a fervent attempt to serve God.


I approach it from two perspectives. First, do we see evidence of God interacting with our physical world. And second, is the God of the Bible consistent and worthy of worship?


Those are two common slip-ups.


Not for a man of logic. The same logic that God bequeathed me and the to the world.


Is logic the only gift that was bestowed on you?


No, but I doubt God, who created the world that moves according to logic, would want me to abandon it.


Of course not! We are physical beings living in a physical world that is awesome to explore. The first point of logic is that if there is a spiritual realm, the first thing that is different is that you won’t be able to locate anything physical, anything measurable, or anything repeatable. You are now outside physical science.

In the physical world we are used to exploring and learning things that will help and benefit us as we are physical people with physical needs. What is your purpose for wanting to explore the spiritual realm?


You have assumed there is s spiritual realm.

So you are saying that the spiritual realm has no impact on the physical realm at all. Doesn’t sound any different than no God.

To establish it exists would be a start.


Yeah, that’s why I said "IF there is a spiritual realm…


I can see why it might.


It doesn’t have a physical existence.


Well, if the spiritual realm doesn’t interact with the physical in any way then for all intents and purposes it may as well not exist. If it just sits in its own dimension, never interacting…

But if it does interact with the physical world then we should be able to find evidence of that interaction.

And Christians, certainly Catholics, believe it does interact with the physical world. Whether it is burning bushes, resurrected people, stopping the earth’s rotation or somethings more modern like the power of prayer, curing the sick or helping football teams win games.


Yes, I recognized your line of thinking.


What is your take on it? Does the spiritual impinge on the physical realm in any way?


Earlier I said we are physical beings. I believe we are made up of body, mind, soul/spirit. In that respect we have a foot in both worlds. Our physical body/actions affect our spirit/soul and that works both ways. Bodies benefit from physical exercise and nourishment. Souls benefit from spiritual exercise and spiritual nourishment.

Body and spirit interact everyday, not just on a personal level, because we interact with one another and we affect and effect one another. Ever reflect on the spirit of home versus the workplace versus America’s political atmosphere? Or, were you out searching for a burning bush? :slight_smile:

One long, tiring day my husband and I (who had just moved into the area) were out looking for a place to live. By early evening we were tired and discouraged. Then we walked into a house that fit our every requirement–it had been what we had been looking for all day! Except…that house felt evil. As we left, I was thinking, “My husband is going to kill me. We found the perfect place, but I can’t live here.” When we left, he asked me what I thought. I told him, and he breathed a huge sigh of relief. “I felt it, too, and I am an atheist. Let’s keep looking.”

Saint John of the Cross is so frustrating, mostly because of how correct he is. He says things like (hang onto your logic) To find knowing, one must go by the way of unknowing…to find light one must go the way of darkness. He would tell you to find logic by going by illogical ways. John Dewey must have caught onto this, because he said, "Every great advance in science has issued from a new audacity of imagination."

Anyway, my husband and I can have the exact same experience on the spirit level, yet he remains an atheist. A burning bush moment seldom changes anything. Moses was the exception, not the rule–and as a result, he became exceptional.


I’m not even sure what you mean here. Not on a personal level but on an interpersonal level?

Regardless, it seems you are saying the spiritual does effect our physical world. Your anecdote shows it as well. So it could be tested.

So you say. I think a burning bush would often change things.


I believe, more accurately, that God gave us reason. How could logic ever explain walking on water, or raising someone from the dead? God created the laws of science and reason, but he is not bound by them. If you try and explain God by logic, you will never believe.


Compare it to physical health and mood. If we come down with a cold or flu, that can be passed on to others. Our good mood or bad mood can affect others. So can the conditions of our spirits. This should not to be said, so I had better say it anyway, not for you, but for some of my shadows: Whether a person is a person of faith or an atheist does not make their spirit better/worse; weaker/stronger. God works with who we are; He shows no partiality.