Why is Cooley Law School still open?

Safiel · 2020-02-03T17:33:36.223Z

AlexMcAlpine:

Safiel:

But Cooley takes them in, takes their money and pumps them out with essentially a worthless piece of paper. And even if they are in the 28% that actually passes the bar, their long term law employment outlook is not good.

Is it Cooley’s fault that the people they give a chance to, don’t apply themselves?

Presumably Cooley and the other ones you wish to close are not as expensive as the “top” schools.

So someone could get into those lower ranked schools, buckle down and pass the bar exam if they tried hard enough.

(Also it may be that those top schools give their students the answer in advance, while the lower ones don’t. (Who knows what a little donation here or there will get for the most wealthy among us.) )

Cooley’s “fault” is that they accept students that, even if they do pass the bar, have dim prospects in the legal community.

The fact is that automation has reduced the need for attorneys in the same way it has reduced the need for other professions and for skilled workers, etc. There used to be a need for attorneys who did nothing but sift through records and files and do general research. These days, advanced legal research websites have made these type of attorney jobs superfluous. In the past, a Cooley graduate might have filled a job like this. But most of those types of jobs are gone and the rest are fast following.

Now all a Cooley graduate can hope for is a job in a tiny rural law firm or to try to make it as a single practitioner. Poor prospects with mediocre remuneration at best.

Even if you do graduate from a decent law firm there are no guarantees of success. A young lady from my own high school class received her J.D. from Wake Forest. After practicing law for a little over 5 years, she now runs an Allstate Insurance sales firm. She keeps her license active but has not actually practiced law in over 20 years.

It can be a crap shoot even graduating from better schools.

WorldWatcher · 2020-02-03T18:15:16.602Z

Safiel:

Jezcoe:

What are you talking about?

An esteemed graduate from Cooley went on to be the personal lawyer to the President of the United States… until he went to jail.

So that isn’t nothing.

You are WAY ******* late on this.

I addressed this a LONG time ago.

This is more amusement than anything else, Michael Cohen graduated from Cooley Law School

Safiel,

I don’t think @Jezcoe was ragging on you, it was a dig at Trump in the vain of “he only hires the best”.

At least that was my take.
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SimonSays · 2020-02-03T18:27:00.154Z

Safiel:

Now all a Cooley graduate can hope for is a job in a tiny rural law firm or to try to make it as a single practitioner. Poor prospects with mediocre remuneration at best.

Or an elected member of the House of Representatives for the 13th district of Michigan. What do you have against the highly successful and respected representative, Rashida Tlaib?

Safiel · 2020-02-03T18:56:22.154Z

SimonSays:

Safiel:

Now all a Cooley graduate can hope for is a job in a tiny rural law firm or to try to make it as a single practitioner. Poor prospects with mediocre remuneration at best.

Or an elected member of the House of Representatives for the 13th district of Michigan. What do you have against the highly successful and respected representative, Rashida Tlaib?

Even the worst schools can occasionally spit out a successful student.

The exception does not define the rule.

As for respected, I will not comment on that since it goes beyond the premise of the thread.

mwevans1234 · 2020-02-03T19:11:56.038Z

SimonSays:

Or an elected member of the House of Representatives for the 13th district of Michigan. What do you have against the highly successful and respected representative, Rashida Tlaib?

Of the thousands of people who lose their lunches in MLMs, some people do make enough to get by.

Doesn’t mean that the exception outweighs the norm…

Janet_Miller · 2020-02-03T21:10:07.877Z

https://www.dentistryiq.com/dental-hygiene/student-hygiene/article/16367841/mount-ida-college-closes-dental-hygiene-students-and-professors-stranded

It does appear not only law, but other colleges with some vocational programs, are shutting down. Appears here the problem is debt accrued by the school & a failed merger.

Janet_Miller · 2020-02-03T21:20:02.575Z

https://www.dentistryiq.com/dental-hygiene/student-hygiene/article/16367841/mount-ida-college-closes-dental-hygiene-students-and-professors-stranded

“Is it Cooley’s fault that the people they give a chance to, don’t apply themselves?”

If that’s the case, no. I just found out about the closure of Mount Ida—which had a few good vocational programs that didn’t require four years—a few weeks ago.

One of their four year degree holders worked with me awhile back and told me something quite similar to your question. Other than Thomas, I don’t know any former students there to really answer that.

But in his words, students were blaming & filing complaints as a group against a particular professor when apparently many missed that professor’s senior biochemistry class & failed to turn in homework.

“Gee, that’s funny. I’m a full time working student who completed the homework & passed the class.“ Many complaining were strictly students, yet chose not to apply themselves.

Seems to me there are a lot of colleges for a number of students who shouldn’t even be steered towards a four year institution, much less graduate programs. Maybe it’s time, as in the case of Mount Ida, for Cooley and other less selective schools to shut down if many aren’t applying themselves & will have more chance of student debts than employment prospects.

Janet_Miller · 2020-02-03T21:23:04.590Z

I’m wondering, too, if law school in general is such a realistic prospect when some transactions that may have once required an attorney can be assisted by a paralegal or clerk of court, such as simple divorces with no children involved.

LucyLou · 2020-02-03T21:24:12.018Z

My daughter’s lifelong friend and our former neighbor recently announced her wedding engagement. I was not familiar with the young man, but one of his posts came across my FB feed, so I clicked to check him out. Sadly I saw that he was attending Thomas Cooley Law School. I’m sure her family just thinks that it’s great that he’s in law school, and sadly his family probably doesn’t know any better either.

TheDoctorIsIn · 2020-02-03T21:34:03.519Z

The law school application process is interesting.

When you take the LSAT and submit your undergraduate transcripts, those scores are released to all schools (if you check the box), not just schools you actually apply to.

I did rather well on the LSAT, and my undergraduate GPA was relatively good - and I got hundreds of emails from lower-tier law schools all but begging me to apply to them.

I don’t know whether Cooley sent me any emails, but I’m pretty sure they at least sent me a fee waiver. Suffice it to say I didn’t apply there.

mwevans1234 · 2020-02-03T21:35:42.180Z

Janet_Miller:

I’m wondering, too, if law school in general is such a realistic prospect when some transactions that may have once required an attorney can be assisted by a paralegal or clerk of court, such as simple divorces with no children involved.

Definitely squeezes the low end stuff!

I can pay 50 bucks on LegalZoom and get a will, for example.

No need for the added time and expense to just divvy things up equally between wife and mistress when I go

mwevans1234 · 2020-02-03T21:39:51.813Z

TheDoctorIsIn:

The law school application process is interesting.

When you take the LSAT and submit your undergraduate transcripts, those scores are released to all schools (if you check the box), not just schools you actually apply to.

I did rather well on the LSAT, and my undergraduate GPA was relatively good - and I got hundreds of emails from lower-tier law schools all but begging me to apply to them.

I don’t know whether Cooley sent me any emails, but I’m pretty sure they at least sent me a fee waiver. Suffice it to say I didn’t apply there.

You should listen to Gladwell’s podcast on legal education - what the LSAT tests for versus what is actually important as an attorney.

I did well enough on my LSAT to overcome my dodgy GPA when it came to getting into pretty good schools (bottom of Tier 1, top of Tier 2), but business schools really loved my GMAT (and didn’t care about my grades); I went that route instead.

TheDoctorIsIn · 2020-02-03T21:41:17.073Z

As a current law school student, I would say that law school is only worth the cost if you attend a top-50 school, or perhaps even only a top-25 school.

The most important statistics are percent employed in JD-requring positions after graduation and average salary post graduation.

Safiel · 2020-02-03T21:43:43.884Z

TheDoctorIsIn:

As a current law school student, I would say that law school is only worth the cost if you attend a top-50 school, or perhaps even only a top-25 school.

The most important statistics are percent employed in JD-requring positions after graduation and average salary post graduation.

I would also mention that small minority of students who are innately gifted to be litigators in Big Law. The ones that can pull down a major federal judge clerk ship and then sign on to a Big Law firm for a large bonus.

Those would be the ones not only going to Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Stanford, etc, but graduating in the top quarter of the class.

TheDoctorIsIn · 2020-02-03T21:57:36.462Z

Safiel:

I would also mention that small minority of students who are innately gifted to be litigators in Big Law. The ones that can pull down a major federal judge clerk ship and then sign on to a Big Law firm for a large bonus.

I have a number of classmates who will walk across the stage at graduation directly into $200,000/yr Associate positions at BigLaw firms.

Personally, I’m looking for Gov work. If I do well in this competition, I could possibly start at G-13. I’m not up for the BigLaw lifestyle.

Janet_Miller · 2020-02-03T21:57:57.450Z

I felt kind of dumb canceling my legal insurance plan this year. It actually was helpful buying a house, as MA requires an attorney be part of the transaction. The insurance paid him a negotiated fee & we paid $0.

When I asked about estate law, it does cover that but does not cover any notary expenses. Felt kind of dumb canceling it, but I remember reading somewhere it could be done on Legal Zoom for around $70.

TheDoctorIsIn · 2020-02-03T22:00:23.614Z

Notary expenses are a couple of bucks.

In NY at least, notaries are statutorily prohibited from charging more than $2 per signature.

Janet_Miller · 2020-02-03T22:05:23.119Z

That helps to know, thank you.

I may enroll again in the Legal Plan when it’s time to sign up as it not only covers estate & real estate, but traffic court and family law.

reflechissez · 2020-02-03T22:15:47.864Z

Janet_Miller:

I felt kind of dumb canceling my legal insurance plan this year. It actually was helpful buying a house, as MA requires an attorney be part of the transaction. The insurance paid him a negotiated fee & we paid $0.

When I asked about estate law, it does cover that but does not cover any notary expenses. Felt kind of dumb canceling it, but I remember reading somewhere it could be done on Legal Zoom for around $70.

Notary costs are peanuts. Theoretically, you can create your own will. Depends on
how complex it is.

WorldWatcher · 2020-02-03T22:36:35.186Z

TheDoctorIsIn:

Safiel:

I would also mention that small minority of students who are innately gifted to be litigators in Big Law. The ones that can pull down a major federal judge clerk ship and then sign on to a Big Law firm for a large bonus.

I have a number of classmates who will walk across the stage at graduation directly into $200,000/yr Associate positions at BigLaw firms.

Personally, I’m looking for Gov work. If I do well in this competition, I could possibly start at G-13. I’m not up for the BigLaw lifestyle.

Ever think of JAG?

Can be a role of the dice. My daughters first assignment was an arm-pit. No she’s stationed in Germany and loving it. She’s been there about six months and has traveled to London, Ireland, Copenhagen, Italy, Paris and a couple of places I forget. LOL

She started with ROTC in college and so went active duty with a couple of years seniority for pay purposes.
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