That’s nice.
A different conversation than the one we’re having here…but nice.
This reason has been presented several times. In my own lifetime, I am not seeing this fear of death in either people of faith or atheists. If people today don’t live their lives embedded in this fear, should we project this fear onto our ancestors?
Perhaps just as likely explanation is that religion was not spark by fear of death, but by Near Death Experiences? I understand the ancient Egyptians deliberately sought near death experiences. What if…What if a few who had a near death experience saw a former Pharaoh who had passed on…might that not lead to thinking their leaders had become gods?
Ask someone on the frontlines in a war, or someone running from a mass shooter, screaming, heart pounding, sweating if they dont fear death. Or the person about to be beheaded by ISIS, if they fear dying and death.
No one said people live their lives, in modern times, “embedded” in the fear of death. So, I’m not sure where you got that from. Do some people have 0 fear of death? Probably - but that’s also probably exaggerated.
It’s easy not to fear death in America, when you have central air, a roof, good clothes, food readily accessible. It’s also easy not to fear death when you have scientific understanding of natural forces and medicine/immunizations to make survival easy.
But, it’s in our blood. It’s part of our evolution. The vast majority of people dont want to die. And when faced with a real or dillusional prospect of imminent death, panic and anxiety arises. That’s simply a fact. And 1000s of years ago, when we were hunter gatherers, or primitive peoples, we didnt have the luxury of not facing potential death on a weekly basis. It’s why we worshipped and begged gods to bring us rain, and give us new crops.
It’s easy to say people dont fear death in your pajamas, with a plate of spaghetti, in 70 deg house. It’s another to say people dont fear death when a gun is pointed to their head, when they havent eaten for a week, or have just been told they have terminal cancer.
There isnt an argument that ALL religions arise out of fear of death. Some, perhaps, most certainly do. Some not. Its why black wolf separated reasons with commas.
I’d also be interesting in how eastern religions came to be: hinduism, buddhism, taoism? Theres such fundamental differences
Was that my argument? I thought I was simply trying to get this thread back on track.
I had another idea of why religion may have developed–that it might be traced to near death experiences. Is the the point where you want me to say, “Oops! I was wrong! There is no way religion developed because of near death experiences!”
Carry on.
Well, when you preface it with this:
You literally asked why we should believe fear of death is a reason, then used examples in your life how nobody fears death, then proceeded to question the notion that our ancestors feared death. Then you proceeded to ask if “religion” was sparked by near death experiences.
I was simply clarifying that no one is saying ALL religions are sparked by fear of death. I was also clarifying in another post that we arent talking our personal experiences with death, but rather human experiences both now and throughout history.
Do you believe fear of death played a major role in the development of religion? It sounds like you are trying to play it down - if not, all you have to do is clarify your thoughts for us.
Carry on.
Nobody is saying near death experiences weren’t possible motivators. What are you talking about? You brought up near death experiences as an alternative, which is fine. But you prefaced it by downplaying the fear of death as a motivator. Do you think fear of death is a major motivator or not?
And I was just clarifying there is no “it” or singular “religion”.
Personally, no. If fear were a motivator, then I think we would see fear of other things also motivating the formation of religions. My thinking then turns to the opposite, meaning birth. If ancient man did not consider birth a reason to pursue religion, why should death prompt it? Fear? Fear of other things didn’t seem to prompt a pursuit of religion. Therefore, it occurred to me that something started mankind thinking about God, spirit, afterlife. What occurs now that also likely occurred then? Near Death Experiences cross cultures, time, and continents. So…I offered Near Death Experiences as a possibility for the development of religion. Obviously I am wrong. Forgive me for bringing it up.
What was the “first” religion.
If it was in ancient Egypt with their pantheon of Gods it would seem that “fear of death” was absolutely a motivator. That’s why everyone who could afford to got mummified so they could continue to live in the “afterworld.”
So maybe, not “fear” of death but a curiosity of what happens after death, with people assuming they’d go on living - but in a better world.
That’s the similiarity between Islam and Christianity, isn’t it - that people will live on after they’re dead in heaven - assuming they’ve pleased their God they get to go to one place, and if they’ve displeased their God by not meeting certain conditions, they go to the other place.
Meri, this is ridiculous. You want to absolve religion of any fault regarding laws passed due to religious beliefs. As if religions have had no influence.
So you would be fine with a hijab only law in your state if the voters voted it in. You wouldn’t blame Islam at all. Really?
We can address the rest of our questions later, but it’s statements like this that seriously pique my curiosity as to how your mind works.
Can you elaborate on this?
Why would you think this way? I honeslty don’t get it.
What’s the logical progression from your assumption that since ancient man didn’t consider birth a reason to pursue religion (we’ll assume for argument’s sake this assumption is true) that death wouldn’t be a reason for them to do so?
You misunderstand. I am not absolving religion. I am pointing out the realities of civil law. In fact, no church or religion shut down any courthouse or government office for religious reasons. People who follow a religion do not have the authority; the churches they attend do not have the authority. All they have is a voice–like every other citizen in America.
Do you know what I have to be fine with here in California? I have to be fine with the Democrats eliminating Republicans from federal elections when two Democrats get more votes at the state level.
I have to be fine with people who are keen on all environmental issues vote against repealing the newest gas tax and putting a halt to further increases without a public vote. I have to remember to bring my own shopping bags to the grocery store. Hmmm. Reminds me. I need to go stock up on as many plastic straws as I can find, as it appears they are the next item on the chopping block.
And you think I should be concerned about a hijab? Really? That might cut down on people purchasing hair products. Businesses might lose money, and then how would our politicians raise money to put even more Democrats into power?
The point is, we live in a society where for any number of causes and reasons, we disagree with one another. I don’t see this as any reason to begin screaming about religion–or even environmentalists for that matter. I happen to agree with them on a number of issues–but not when they give politicians carte-blanche to raise taxes in every and any way that they can think up.
Jihab! 
If only that were the worst issue in California!
I’ve ready said you arent wrong for bringing up NDE. There is a chemical called DMT, naturally occurring that causes NDE. Some cultures actively take it as a spiritual/religious activity via ayahuasca.
Having said that, I think you are 100% wrong about the fear of death not activating religious mindsets. Stressors and anxiety can induce psychosis. On top of this, much of ancient religion, and some current religion, actively use punishment in afterlife as a means to convince and believe.
You say you arent absolving religion… then proceed to immediately absolve it
Nobody is “screaming” about religion. Nobody is saying religious people cant be active members in society andg government.
Right. It serves as a placeholder for what we cant know. It takes AWAY the fear of the unknown. Otherwise, why not just say “I dont know” and leave it at that?
Except in other countries there are theocracies. Current American government is such a narrow context, given the evolution of religion and other nation states that have religious institutions as the top authority
“My kind”? Really? Here’s a hint. I came from a large family–all different types of people. But the constant refrain from everyone was, “Meri is different…Meri thinks differently…Meri isn’t the same as the rest of us…” No one was being insulting or derogatory–just honestly perplexed. So explain to me how “your kind” works. Maybe once I understand that, I can get you to understand “my kind”.
Here is a start. Years ago I heard the proposition people only believe in religion because they are afraid of death. Since I wasn’t afraid of death and I did practice a religion, I wondered if I was an anomaly. So I did some research–both among people I know and articles that were available then. The upshot was that people–whether religious or not–aren’t fearful of death itself. They may have fears regarding those their death might affect here; they have no wish to die any time soon; but the prospect of death doesn’t give most of us much concern. It’s a one day type of thing, but it is not a now concern for most of us. When thinking of their death, most people’s hope is that it is quick, not something that follows a lengthy illness. They voice more fear of the illness than they do of death. That is what I learned then. I don’t know if more recent studies have found anything different.
So…if religion is founded on fear, why name fear of death when it appears that fear of death doesn’t bother the majority of us, and why not found a religion based on fear of lengthy illness, or spiders, or falling. (I guess all of us have an innate fear of falling.) Scientific question: Is is possible religion is not based on fear? Or death?
If that is possible, then why else might religion develop? I always look at opposites. Can we hypothesize that religions developed based on birth (new life), not death. Sounds really good, but I could not see anything to support this. So I looked around for something more tangible. What other experiences do humans have that might cause them to develop a great interest in religion? Near Death Experiences seemed to fit.
