Why aren't you Catholic?

I’m curious, can you provide a citation for this?

Extra ecclesiam nulla salus
“Outside the Church there is no salvation.”
-Catechism of the Catholic Church esp 846-848

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm

The necessity of faith

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.42 "Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’"43

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God …

and

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

I was raised Baptist. I am not Baptist now but am still protestant. I have a huge amount of respect for how Catholics live out their faith and I often say that the Catholic Church might be the biggest source for good and charity in the world because of their huge numbers. I do disagree with much of Catholic teachings and doctrines but I also agree with some of it. I have a different view on the doctrines of Grace is my main disagreement.

I also highly disagree with what was posted about salvation only being found in the Church. That is simply not what the Apostles taught. In my view anyway

I am surprised you disagree with the Catholic understanding of Grace.

My formal Catholic education stopped in my early teens. I’m sure Meri will explain better, but I am sleepless. Please indulge me by reading my ham-handed explanation:

According to the Catechism

“1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46”

As with many things, Catholic thinkers have overthought it but as Catholic.com puts it > "If you took your parish’s catechism classes when you were growing up, you at least remember that there are two kinds of grace, sanctifying and actual. That may be all you recall. The names being so similar, you might have the impression sanctifying grace is nearly identical to actual grace. Not so.

Sanctifying grace stays in the soul. It’s what makes the soul holy; it gives the soul supernatural life. More properly, it is supernatural life.

Actual grace, by contrast, is a supernatural push or encouragement. It’s transient. It doesn’t live in the soul, but acts on the soul from the outside…

We have eternal souls, dogs do not.
We can go to heaven. Dogs cannot.
That’s a good thing for us and we did not do anything to deserve it. It’s a gift from God. We received it because of God’s ‘goodness’ or grace. He loves us so He gave us eternal souls and the ability to go to heaven.
:point_up: That is 'sanctifying grace.:point_up:
It is the primary or foundational grace. The most important one.

In addition, we receive, or can receive many other gifts from God, especially if we

  • believe in Him
  • pray to Him
  • try to do His will/be a good person.
    We don’t deserve these little treaures either.

:point_up:Those little treaures are 'actual grace’:point_up:

Whether we are discussing ‘the big gift’ or ‘the little gifts’ we don’t deserve them. They are God’s gifts of love. We receive them because of God’s grace and therefore sometimes use “God’s gifts” and “God’s grace” interchangeably although there is a hair-splitting difference.

I hope, in the above, I have not botched Catholic teaching too much. I’m sure those who have a grown-up understanding if Catholicism will come along soon enough.
Maybe I had too much caffeine. lol

I’m curious, did you read the entire snippet you posted? If so, I don’t see how you could possibly come to the conclusion you previously posted:

You could be the best-behaved, sin-abstaining, charity-doing, most devoutly-believing, bible-reading person on a desert island, but without an ordained priest performing the sacraments your chances if getting into heaven are “unknown.”

Perhaps keep in mind that at that time there was only one Church, and the Apostles appeared to have remembered Jesus’ prayer that they all remain as one, just as he and the Father are one. When Protestants formed their many denominations, did they come to the conclusion that salvation cannot be found in Apostolic/church teachings? Where do Protestants say salvation may be found? (The Catholic Church says it can be found in Church teachings which teaches Christ brought salvation to the world.) Who do non-Catholic Christian say brought salvation to the world? If other churches teach it is Christ, then they are disagreeing with themselves in saying salvation is through the Church (not through trees, stones, or clouds or the teachings of any other philosophy or science).

Often times, Protestant churches act as though the Catholic Catechism is statements against them, all about them. It is not. It is a statement that explains to Catholics what and why the Church teaches. (Notice we never find Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, or Jews wailing over the Catholic catechism and what it teaches Catholics.)

You did a great job, Gaius. Some Protestant denominations are still building straw men of what they say the Church teaches so they have something about the Catholic Church to burn down.

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Some Protestant denominations teach that people are “saved” (i.e. know they are going to spend eternity in heaven) the moment they accept Jesus as their savior.

The Catholic Church teaches that our hope/expectation is of heaven, and that the Church is teaching that path of salvation/redemption. We name as saints those who have led a life modeling Christ, putting his teachings into action. There is every expectation they are in heaven–and there is a rigorous process (including miracles) before anyone is named a saint.

The Catholic Church also teaches that our eternity is decided by God, after death, when we are judged. For the greatest majority of us, our eternal fate remains unknown, but we are content to entrust that outcome to God. In reading Gaius’ description of the man on the island, the Catholic expectation is that man is in heaven with God. But we do not claim to know. Nor can we know (with the exception of named Saints) whether a person who has lived the exact same life, but participated in Church sacraments, is in heaven. The expectation is there for both.

Yes it lists that the church us a necessity, faith us a necessity, abd baptism is a necessity.

The fate of babies who die before baptism and the fate of those who, through no fault of their own, have never had access to those is unknown.

I am sure that elsewhere the Catechism explains that Penance is a necessity and the roles of works (a symptom, “automatically” done by those with faith), and receiving the Eucharist (a symptom, “automatically” done as part of being in the Church’s COMMUNity.)

In fairness, the Catechism is a teaching tool. IRRC the Canon is the actual book o’ rules and the Catechism “the official guide to the rules.”

As such, the Catechism attempts to guess what questions a person might have, “Why this and not that?” or “What happens to …?” and “Can we …” and “(Why) do we have to …?”

Many of those questions are of course also addressed by the various protestant denominations, so it’s not a extreme stretch that a sensitive Protestant would think the Catechism is all about them.

There happens to be nothing in the Bible that suggests anything other that a person is saved by believing on Jesus, and once that has happened, his/her eternal fate is sealed. There is absolutely nothing in the Bible that teaches that one must wait until judgement day to know for sure.

I am not Catholic because I am Jewish.

I was born from a Catholic Mother and and Baptist Father…And ‘baptized’ as a baby into the Catholic Church…and then voluntarily went to a Baptist Church at age 15 to get ‘baptized’. I do believe in God. Despite all that…I ask every day that God/Jesus forgives me for my sins. Because I ‘sin’ every day. That’s how I live my life. WWJD. And some days, it’s not easy.

I love this response. Clear and concise and it says it all. Thank you, lulubee.

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No, it’s not easy. Yet the resulting joy is quite real as well.

Merri covered that in her first paragraph.

If I am going to go to a religious service I will opt to go to a Catholic church. I was raised as a Catholic, but I accept perennialism.

Welcome. I hope you will continue to contribute to discussions here.

No she didn’t.

Thanks for the information Gaius and from that we are much closer than I thought.

I am a salvation by Grace through faith alone believer. That is pretty much my disagreement as far as the doctrines you are explaining goes. I believe I am saved by Grace through faith alone, and any good works or obedience i might muster up are a result of that, and not the other way around. I do not believe that my works or obedience can save me and are not a component of my salvation, but I am saved by Grace. In other words, I do not obey God to get saved, I obey God because I am saved. That is different than the Catholic teaching on salvation in my eyes. The end result is I, and all the Catholics I know, pretty much live out our faith identical. Serving God born from a love for Him and mankind. We have had some great discussions in the past about theology but the older i get I am less interested in arguing theology than trying to lift people up no matter what they believe. I am not a protestant believer who says Catholics cannot be saved or anything like that. What does the catechism say about me and my salvation, not being a member of the Church?

I do know one thing for certain brother. These theological differences are not strawmen, never have been and never will be. It is how the groups of Christians have viewed each other for a very long time. Like the accusations made against faith alone believers in this forum often that we can sin all we want because we are saved by Grace. Of course that is simply not true either but it is perception that is not without any merit at all, just like my view of the Church and Grace.

Thanks again for the information as that does clear up some misconceptions I had, to a point anyway. For me the end result is what each of us do with our faith, how we live it out, and I am not seeing any difference in that area.