White Privilege? Nah...can't be

WuWei · 2020-08-31T13:55:52.349Z

tzu:

Nauseating as it might be for all of us, I don’t disagree.

But the debate over who gets restrained, and how, before we’ll even think about slashing bloated cop budgets is surely problematic.

You have to change the law before you can change who is detained.

WuWei · 2020-08-31T13:56:22.332Z

PhilipNolan:

You’re right, however in addition, in most jurisdictions, you are “required” to cooperate with reasonable requests from authorities. Asking for ID in this instance was reasonable.

Based on what?

PhilipNolan · 2020-08-31T14:15:57.668Z

Time, locatation, and activity.

WuWei · 2020-08-31T14:18:56.551Z

PhilipNolan:

Time, locatation, and activity.

I disagree. Police action is supposed to be based on law.

JayJay · 2020-08-31T14:25:06.110Z

PhilipNolan:

Store owner brought it upon himself. Says so right in the article. Police saw something out of place, and asked the guy multiple times if he was the owner and the owner refused to answer. the store owner is an idiot.

The community meeting comes after the city released body cam video showing the back and forth between both sides. In it, you can hear officers questioning Khalif multiple times: “Do one of you own the store?”

Khalif didn’t answer the question, saying what people didn’t see in the body cam video are the officers who had circled the business multiple times beforehand and had been watching them.

He’s under no obligation to answer any of the questions.

That’s the whole argument under discussion.

Cops need to think.

The store was brightly lit…there were three people clearly visible.

The cop needs to ask himself “Is this how thieves would behave? Would they be calmly hanging out in a store with all the lights on?”

JayJay · 2020-08-31T14:29:11.371Z

I didn’t say you had to be confrontational.

I’m not commenting on how this store owner’s behavior.

But I can look past that and understand he’s under no obligation to prove to the officer he belongs there. It’s his store…period.

Again…I seem to expect more of the police than you do.

Brightly lit store…three people calmly hanging out in it.

Just because they might never have seen the store open at that time of night doesn’t mean they should cut off their critical thinking skills.

Are three people calmly hanging out in a brightly lit store what you would expect thieves to be doing?

Yes or no?

PhilipNolan · 2020-08-31T14:36:14.668Z

JayJay:

He’s under no obligation to answer any of the questions.

That’s the whole argument under discussion.

That’s pretty ambiguous as 40+ states and the Feds have laws making it a crime to disobey lawful orders of police officers. (and those laws tend to be all over the map as to when and under what circumstances they’re applicable)

The smart thing is to comply with reasonable orders from police, and argue your case in court with a lawyer. (which if I’m not mistaken is the whole point of the judicial system). But seeing as people aren’t very smart, keep tilting at that windmill.

Hexenbiest · 2020-08-31T14:39:38.687Z

Way more Indians working I.T. were I am at, of course that is just your lunch room our floor has near 140 engineers 2 of which are American.

JayJay · 2020-08-31T15:18:00.280Z

PhilipNolan:

JayJay:

He’s under no obligation to answer any of the questions.

That’s the whole argument under discussion.

That’s pretty ambiguous as 40+ states and the Feds have laws making it a crime to disobey lawful orders of police officers. (and those laws tend to be all over the map as to when and under what circumstances they’re applicable)

The smart thing is to comply with reasonable orders from police, and argue your case in court with a lawyer. (which if I’m not mistaken is the whole point of the judicial system). But seeing as people aren’t very smart, keep tilting at that windmill.

Why should I waste time and money in court when the smarter thing to do is reform the police to act better and smarter?

That’s the whole point of these protests.

Again seriously…cops go by store. Lights are on…three people are in there. Ok…unusual…don’t recall having seem that before.

Now take the next step…analyze the unusual. Is this how criminals would behave? Would they turn on all the lights on in the store and make themselves conspicuous?

Borgia_dude · 2020-08-31T15:20:39.929Z

zantax:

If you believe in property rights, why would you mind the police enforcing them? If cops get a report of someone breaking into my home, I want them to come, even if it’s me doing the breaking and entering because shocker, they have no way of knowing its the owner until they ask and it is proven. The question is, why should anyone make that confrontational? They are there for the sole reason of protecting your property, the proper response is to be cooperative and thank them.

Agreed. In this case, if the store owner shows them possession of they key, that should suffice absent a report of breaking in, right?

JayJay · 2020-08-31T15:23:36.156Z

And did you ever stop and think one of the possible reasons the store owner acted hostile towards the cops is he’s had issues with the cops pulling him aside for things in the past?

Many times blacks view police with suspicion because police are being used not to enforce the law put to enforce a veneer of “order” in “poorer neighborhoods”.

And that number of encounters is a metric to measure how well the police are doing this?

And that metric gives rise to ■■■■■■■■ laws like being able to stop someone for “obstructing pedestrian traffic” and the like…laws whose only purpose is to deliberately increase the number of police interactions so the police can show how effective they are?

hwyflier · 2020-08-31T15:31:47.427Z

zantax:

Hilarious. Why would I be confrontational when a public servant is trying to do the job we pay them to do. It costs me nothing to be polite and cooperative and I am happy to do so. And I would further argue anyone and everyone has a moral obligation to do likewise. Someone observed probable cause my home was being broken into, they came to my door, knocked, told me they had a report someone broke in and could I show I lived there. What earthly reason is there for me to be angry or uncooperative?

The default setting here assumes the “public servant” is there to help you and not ■■■■ with you. I think we’re all aware that’s not everyone’s experience, and their default trust level of the stranger with the badge and gun may vary.

JayJay · 2020-08-31T15:37:02.795Z

hwyflier:

zantax:

Hilarious. Why would I be confrontational when a public servant is trying to do the job we pay them to do. It costs me nothing to be polite and cooperative and I am happy to do so. And I would further argue anyone and everyone has a moral obligation to do likewise. Someone observed probable cause my home was being broken into, they came to my door, knocked, told me they had a report someone broke in and could I show I lived there. What earthly reason is there for me to be angry or uncooperative?

The default setting here assumes the “public servant” is there to help you and not ■■■■ with you. I think we’re all aware that’s not everyone’s experience, and their default trust level of the stranger with the badge and gun may vary.

Precisely…people have had different experiences with the police, and that colors their reactions.

I think most police are fine.

I do not believe my default attitude towards police in any encounter with them should be complete subservience.

If I haven’t committed a crime, I will paradoxically be less likely to volunteer personal information.

Like with the car example…if I am pulled over for something I am certain I didn’t do…or even if I DID do it…I will first ask the officer to tell me what he believes I did wrong before volunteering any information.

It is wrong the officer’s first question is usually “license and registration, please”. I refuse to provide it until they first tell me what I was pulled over for.

More people should adopt this attitude. Don’t be a jerk about it…but it’s my right to know why the cop pulled me over…from his mouth…before I provide him with any of my info.

JayJay · 2020-08-31T15:45:29.785Z

A good reason why you should just be subservient when a cop talks to you or pulls you over…the use of pretextual stops,

Spotlight PA – 31 Aug 20

Highway ‘stop-and-frisk’: How Pennsylvania state troopers conduct illegal...

A review of five years of cases that arose from traffic stops in the south-central region of the state shows that police used underhand tactics to justify holding and searching drivers illegally.

Here cops were looking for drugs/contraband being carried by drivers, and were using ■■■■■■■■ excuses to stop people on the highway…and then going far beyond what they are allowed to do in order to spot drivers with contraband.

Relying very much on this “I’ll just do what you say, officer” attitude.

Relying on the attitude that seems pervasive of “I’ll let you violate my civil rights because it keeps the baddies at bay”.

PhilipNolan · 2020-08-31T19:31:16.559Z

JayJay:

Relying on the attitude that seems pervasive of “I’ll let you violate my civil rights because it keeps the baddies at bay”

Nobody here is saying that including me. that idea is all in your head. If you have a problem with the police, you need to let them or your city council/Mayor know. Trying to convince me you’re right isn’t going to accomplish a damned thing.

markdido · 2020-08-31T19:50:00.943Z

JayJay:

zantax:

If you believe in property rights, why would you mind the police enforcing them? If cops get a report of someone breaking into my home, I want them to come, even if it’s me doing the breaking and entering because shocker, they have no way of knowing its the owner until they ask and it is proven. The question is, why should anyone make that confrontational? They are there for the sole reason of protecting your property, the proper response is to be cooperative and thank them.

Sure I want them to come.

As soon as I tell them I live there and there’s no problem…that is the end of it.

Period.

I live there…I don’t need to prove it to them.

I am cooperative.

Cooperative does not include being totally submissive to anything they would like to ask me.

Sure it might only take me 30 seconds to prove I live there.

The point is…I don’t have to prove I live there.

Oh and being belligerent to the police isn’t a crime btw.

Sure the store owner in this video was kind of a jerk.

But guess what?

Being a jerk isn’t a crime.

Brilliant thought process.

So the police roll up on some guy trying to pick your front door lock.

He tells the police that he lives there and he forgot his keys.

Do the police just drive away?

After all: “As soon as I tell them I live there and there’s no problem…that is the end of it.”

Welcome to the real world.

JayJay · 2020-08-31T19:51:31.369Z

markdido:

JayJay:

zantax:

If you believe in property rights, why would you mind the police enforcing them? If cops get a report of someone breaking into my home, I want them to come, even if it’s me doing the breaking and entering because shocker, they have no way of knowing its the owner until they ask and it is proven. The question is, why should anyone make that confrontational? They are there for the sole reason of protecting your property, the proper response is to be cooperative and thank them.

Sure I want them to come.

As soon as I tell them I live there and there’s no problem…that is the end of it.

Period.

I live there…I don’t need to prove it to them.

I am cooperative.

Cooperative does not include being totally submissive to anything they would like to ask me.

Sure it might only take me 30 seconds to prove I live there.

The point is…I don’t have to prove I live there.

Oh and being belligerent to the police isn’t a crime btw.

Sure the store owner in this video was kind of a jerk.

But guess what?

Being a jerk isn’t a crime.

Brilliant thought process.

So the police roll up on some guy trying to pick your front door lock.

He tells the police that he lives there and he forgot his keys.

Do the police just drive away?

After all: “As soon as I tell them I live there and there’s no problem…that is the end of it.”

Welcome to the real world.

How many homeowners do you know when they accidentally lock themselves out of their house try to pick the lock?

Let’s go with some odds here, shall we?

Just like- you roll up to a store at 1 AM…all the lights are on and three people are hanging out in there, visible to anyone who happens by.

Odds they are thieves is…what?

markdido · 2020-08-31T20:06:18.578Z

JayJay:

markdido:

JayJay:

zantax:

If you believe in property rights, why would you mind the police enforcing them? If cops get a report of someone breaking into my home, I want them to come, even if it’s me doing the breaking and entering because shocker, they have no way of knowing its the owner until they ask and it is proven. The question is, why should anyone make that confrontational? They are there for the sole reason of protecting your property, the proper response is to be cooperative and thank them.

Sure I want them to come.

As soon as I tell them I live there and there’s no problem…that is the end of it.

Period.

I live there…I don’t need to prove it to them.

I am cooperative.

Cooperative does not include being totally submissive to anything they would like to ask me.

Sure it might only take me 30 seconds to prove I live there.

The point is…I don’t have to prove I live there.

Oh and being belligerent to the police isn’t a crime btw.

Sure the store owner in this video was kind of a jerk.

But guess what?

Being a jerk isn’t a crime.

Brilliant thought process.

So the police roll up on some guy trying to pick your front door lock.

He tells the police that he lives there and he forgot his keys.

Do the police just drive away?

After all: “As soon as I tell them I live there and there’s no problem…that is the end of it.”

Welcome to the real world.

How many homeowners do you know when they accidentally lock themselves out of their house try to pick the lock?

Let’s go with some odds here, shall we?

Just like- you roll up to a store at 1 AM…all the lights are on and three people are hanging out in there, visible to anyone who happens by.

Odds they are thieves is…what?

Man that’s an awful lot of tap dancing to avoid the question.

"So the police roll up on some guy trying to pick your front door lock.

He tells the police that he lives there and he forgot his keys.

Do the police just drive away?"

JayJay · 2020-08-31T20:10:20.737Z

markdido:

JayJay:

markdido:

JayJay:

zantax:

If you believe in property rights, why would you mind the police enforcing them? If cops get a report of someone breaking into my home, I want them to come, even if it’s me doing the breaking and entering because shocker, they have no way of knowing its the owner until they ask and it is proven. The question is, why should anyone make that confrontational? They are there for the sole reason of protecting your property, the proper response is to be cooperative and thank them.

Sure I want them to come.

As soon as I tell them I live there and there’s no problem…that is the end of it.

Period.

I live there…I don’t need to prove it to them.

I am cooperative.

Cooperative does not include being totally submissive to anything they would like to ask me.

Sure it might only take me 30 seconds to prove I live there.

The point is…I don’t have to prove I live there.

Oh and being belligerent to the police isn’t a crime btw.

Sure the store owner in this video was kind of a jerk.

But guess what?

Being a jerk isn’t a crime.

Brilliant thought process.

So the police roll up on some guy trying to pick your front door lock.

He tells the police that he lives there and he forgot his keys.

Do the police just drive away?

After all: “As soon as I tell them I live there and there’s no problem…that is the end of it.”

Welcome to the real world.

How many homeowners do you know when they accidentally lock themselves out of their house try to pick the lock?

Let’s go with some odds here, shall we?

Just like- you roll up to a store at 1 AM…all the lights are on and three people are hanging out in there, visible to anyone who happens by.

Odds they are thieves is…what?

Man that’s an awful lot of tap dancing to avoid the question.

"So the police roll up on some guy trying to pick your front door lock.

He tells the police that he lives there and he forgot his keys.

Do the police just drive away?"

It’s not dodging the question in the slightest.

It’s putting some thought back into how police work should be done instead of just being mindlessly suspicious all the time.

zantax · 2020-09-01T07:24:22.721Z

JayJay:

A good reason why you should just be subservient when a cop talks to you or pulls you over…the use of pretextual stops,

Highway ‘stop-and-frisk’: How Pennsylvania state troopers conduct illegal traffic searches · Spotlight PA

Here cops were looking for drugs/contraband being carried by drivers, and were using ■■■■■■■■ excuses to stop people on the highway…and then going far beyond what they are allowed to do in order to spot drivers with contraband.

Relying very much on this “I’ll just do what you say, officer” attitude.

Relying on the attitude that seems pervasive of “I’ll let you violate my civil rights because it keeps the baddies at bay”.

Of course, not having contraband kind of makes this a moot point.