Was World War II "mainly peaceful"?

fallenturtle · 2020-08-07T23:24:05.213Z

Bill.in.PA:

The number of combat deaths in World War II 291,557 combat deaths. There were roughly 10 million persons in US armed forces for 3 years of war. That works out to a little under 1000 deaths per 100000 per year.

The Seattle CHAZ/CHOP autonomous had death rate that is roughly 10 times higher during its few weeks of life, yet the media has been labeling Antifa and its allies as “mainly peaceful protestors”. Here are the figures from another thread.
Homicide in Seattle's no-cop paradise - #49 by Bill.in.PA

Was World War II mainly peaceful?

Or has the Antifa-lead violence been more of a war than a protest?

There’s more to identifying peaceful vs non-peaceful than deaths. There are many ways a situation can be non-peaceful without being fatal.

And what is “peaceful”? If things are momentarily non-violent but there’s a looming threat of violence, which was pretty much all of WWII, is that peaceful?

And by that measure, if CHAZ, even with with periods of non-violence, is under constant threat of police taking back the area, then both WWII and CHAZ weren’t completely non-peaceful.

Though you did said:

Bill.in.PA:

the media has been labeling Antifa and its allies as “mainly peaceful protestors”

Ignoring the fact that Antifa wasn’t involved with CHAZ and assuming by the above you mean the people occupying CHAZ, I read this as you using the actions of the occupiers as your measuring stick for whether or not it was peaceful.

So really you shouldn’t count deaths caused by murderers who are not at the zone as occupiers or there to participate in the protests. Without knowing who the murderers were and their motives, this is impossible to calculate.

GrandWazoo · 2020-08-07T23:40:11.650Z

Bill.in.PA:

Or has the Antifa-lead violence been more of a war than a protest?

NPR

No Sign Of Antifa So Far In Justice Department Cases Brought Over Unrest

An NPR review of the federal cases brought in connection with the unrest over George Floyd's death does not find any links to the antifa movement.

From what I have read, the violence has been at the hands of some far left and far right groups.
But since the POTUS and AG are saying that it is only Antifa that is what is believed by Trump supporters.
I’m not saying that some Antifa supporters have not been involved. But there is a lack of evidence that they alone are responsible.
My Dad fought in the South Pacific in WWII. And from his stories it was anything but peaceful.

mollyBrown · 2020-08-07T23:42:37.370Z

This thread reminds me of the slaves didn’t have it so bad in the south threads. Both trying to manipulate history to make an obscure point.

NJBob · 2020-08-08T00:25:56.893Z

Safiel:

Add the fact that Russia did all the hard work against the Wehrmacht.

The United States got the advantage of facing only the depleted shell of the former Wehrmacht.

Untrue.

Many of the German soldiers the US faced were battle hardened Wehrmacht and SS veterans rotated out of the East to the Western Front. The battle of Normandy, June thru August, was as intense as anything in the East.

Safiel · 2020-08-08T00:36:52.761Z

NJBob:

Safiel:

Add the fact that Russia did all the hard work against the Wehrmacht.

The United States got the advantage of facing only the depleted shell of the former Wehrmacht.

Untrue.

Many of the German soldiers the US faced were battle hardened Wehrmacht and SS veterans rotated out of the East to the Western Front. The battle of Normandy, June thru August, was as intense as anything in the East.

They had some vicious battles.

But not nearly the battle they would have to face had the Russians not worn down the Wermacht.

The United States lost about 407,300 worldwide during WWII.

Russia lost, at a minimum, 8,668,000, mostly against Germany.

Without the Russians absorbing so much loss and inflicting so much loss on the Germans, I estimate our military losses at a minimum would have exceeded 4 million in Europe alone.

Yes, we fought fierce battles and lost lots of men, but only a fraction of what we might have lost.

Bill.in.PA · 2020-08-08T00:41:56.092Z

The local Antifa gun club was patrolling the infamous autonomous zone as security:

MyNorthwest.com – 15 Jun 20

Rantz: Militant Antifa group policing CHOP or CHAZ

A militant Antifa group known as the Puget Sound John Brown Gun Club is patrolling the occupied 6-blocks known as CHOP or CHAZ.

Est. reading time: 4 minutes

Two teenagers were killed in the zone in the few weeks it was in existance:

BBC News

Two teenagers shot in Seattle's Chop autonomous zone

Officials are considering dismantling the zone, set up amid protests over the killing of George Floyd

The Portland mayor had complained about federal agents protecting the federal courthouse and marched with Antifa. The violence has continued even though the federal agents have left. Now the mayor is saying the recent arson at the local police station amounted to attempted murder:

When you commit arson with an accelerant in an attempt to burn down a building that is occupied by people who you have intentionally trapped inside, you are not demonstrating, you are attempting to commit murder," Wheeler said in a news conference with Portland Police Chief Chuck Lovell.

“Don’t think for a moment that you are if you are participating in this activity, you are not being a prop for the reelection campaign of Donald Trump — because you absolutely are,” he said. "You are creating the B-roll film that will be used in ads nationally to help Donald Trump during this campaign. If you don’t want to be part of that, then don’t show up.”

Fox News

Portland mayor condemns rioters for 'attempting to commit murder'

Portland, Ore. Mayor Ted Wheeler Thursday evening harshly condemned the actions of rioters who attempted to set fire to a police precinct and blocked the exits while officers were inside.

Is attempted murder compatible with “mainly peaceful protests”?

JayJay · 2020-08-08T00:48:27.978Z

NJBob:

Safiel:

Add the fact that Russia did all the hard work against the Wehrmacht.

The United States got the advantage of facing only the depleted shell of the former Wehrmacht.

Untrue.

Many of the German soldiers the US faced were battle hardened Wehrmacht and SS veterans rotated out of the East to the Western Front. The battle of Normandy, June thru August, was as intense as anything in the East.

9 of every 10 German soldiers killed in World War II were killed by Russians.

There were hardened Wehrmacht soldiers in Normandy.

There were also many conscripted units of Poles, Romanians, etc

Now- one of the reasons the Russians killed so many Germans is on the Eastern Front, neither side offered any quarter.

One of the many reasons that as the war drew to a close, Germans fled westward to surrender to the Americans.

The Americans gave the surrendered Germans chocolate and cigarettes.

The Russians gave them bullets.

fallenturtle · 2020-08-08T00:53:02.248Z

Bill.in.PA:

The local Antifa gun club was patrolling the infamous autonomous zone as security:

MyNorthwest.com – 15 Jun 20

1024×768 188 KB

Rantz: Militant Antifa group policing CHOP or CHAZ

A militant Antifa group known as the Puget Sound John Brown Gun Club is patrolling the occupied 6-blocks known as CHOP or CHAZ.

Fake news. While they are anti-fascist (aren’t we all?) and left wing, they don’t refer to themselves as Antifa.

Bill.in.PA:

Two teenagers were killed in the zone in the few weeks it was in existance:

BBC News

1024×576 119 KB

Two teenagers shot in occupied area of Seattle

Officials are considering dismantling the zone, set up amid protests over the killing of George Floyd

And they were killed by the “mostly peaceful protesters”?

Bill.in.PA:

The Portland mayor had complained about federal agents protecting the federal courthouse and marched with Antifa. The violence has continued even though the federal agents have left. Now the mayor is saying the recent arson at the local police station amounted to attempted murder:

When you commit arson with an accelerant in an attempt to burn down a building that is occupied by people who you have intentionally trapped inside, you are not demonstrating, you are attempting to commit murder," Wheeler said in a news conference with Portland Police Chief Chuck Lovell.

“Don’t think for a moment that you are if you are participating in this activity, you are not being a prop for the reelection campaign of Donald Trump — because you absolutely are,” he said. "You are creating the B-roll film that will be used in ads nationally to help Donald Trump during this campaign. If you don’t want to be part of that, then don’t show up.”

Fox News

1280×720 133 KB

Portland mayor condemns rioters for ‘attempting to commit murder’

Portland, Ore. Mayor Ted Wheeler Thursday evening harshly condemned the actions of rioters who attempted to set fire to a police precinct and blocked the exits while officers were inside.

Is attempted murder compatible with “mainly peaceful protests”?

Did you just move the goal posts into another state?

Zander · 2020-08-08T00:54:21.889Z

Safiel:

Add the fact that Russia did all the hard work against the Wehrmacht.

The United States got the advantage of facing only the depleted shell of the former Wehrmacht.

75% of Wehrmacht casualties inflicted by the red army, I think. They carried a heavy load.

Bill.in.PA · 2020-08-08T01:00:58.278Z

Were lynchings “mainly peaceful”? Frequently a “peaceful” crowd of thousands came to watch the hanging of one man. Here is one example from a post card:

1703×1100 843 KB

Is burning a police station a similar event?

TheRedComet · 2020-08-08T01:02:37.434Z

Yepp.

Most Wehrmacht divisions in the west were composite units. There were the battle hardened units in each division and they mixed NCOs with Eastern Front service alongside new conscripts to help with on the job training.

The SS units were the cream of the crop. The Wehrmacht units in the west varied greatly in quality but the Germans did a decent job building composite divisions.

Our eastern front experience was in the Pacific. While the battles were much smaller, they were just as ferocious and horrific. IJA and US Marine/Army units did not take prisoners in most cases.

bigtwnvin · 2020-08-08T01:25:07.803Z

Mostly civilians.

Bill.in.PA · 2020-08-08T01:31:08.716Z

Democrats and their supporters in the media have been denying the Antifa violence wherever it has occurred.

As far as Seattle, here is a description of the boarded up buildings in downtown from Cliff Mass, a professor in atmospheric science at local university. NPR canceled his weather segments because he bluntly pointed out the results of violence and lack of police presence:

What didn’t I see on my two-hour walk? Not a single police officer. Not one police car.

A boarded up central core of a major U.S. city was being left to the homeless, drug dealers, and security guards. Even the most notorious, crime-ridden corner of the city had no police. The streets of the city had become a fearful abandoned place.

cliffmass.blogspot.com

Seattle: A City in Fear Can Be Restored

This blog provides updated forecasts and comments on current weather or other topics

AZslim · 2020-08-08T01:33:47.822Z

Safiel:

NJBob:

Safiel:

Add the fact that Russia did all the hard work against the Wehrmacht.

The United States got the advantage of facing only the depleted shell of the former Wehrmacht.

Untrue.

Many of the German soldiers the US faced were battle hardened Wehrmacht and SS veterans rotated out of the East to the Western Front. The battle of Normandy, June thru August, was as intense as anything in the East.

They had some vicious battles.

But not nearly the battle they would have to face had the Russians not worn down the Wermacht.

The United States lost about 407,300 worldwide during WWII.

Russia lost, at a minimum, 8,668,000, mostly against Germany.

Without the Russians absorbing so much loss and inflicting so much loss on the Germans, I estimate our military losses at a minimum would have exceeded 4 million in Europe alone.

Yes, we fought fierce battles and lost lots of men, but only a fraction of what we might have lost.

This is correct.

fallenturtle · 2020-08-08T01:34:50.242Z

Bill.in.PA:

Democrats and their supporters in the media have been denying the Antifa violence wherever it has occurred.

As far as Seattle, here is a description of the boarded up buildings in downtown from Cliff Mass, a professor in atmospheric science at local university. NPR canceled his weather segments because he bluntly pointed out the results of violence and lack of police presence:

What didn’t I see on my two-hour walk? Not a single police officer. Not one police car.

A boarded up central core of a major U.S. city was being left to the homeless, drug dealers, and security guards. Even the most notorious, crime-ridden corner of the city had no police. The streets of the city had become a fearful abandoned place.

https://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2020/08/seattle-city-in-fear-can-be-restored.html#comment-form

This has nothing to do with Antifa or CHAZ.

Bill.in.PA · 2020-08-08T01:52:00.853Z

Here is just one example of the “mainly peaceful protests” in Seattle that resulted in arson and bombings. The local police declared a riot and arrested 45.

Breitbart – 26 Jul 20

Seattle Riot: Police Arrest 45 After 'Explosives' Thrown at Officers

The Seattle Police Department declared a riot and arrested 45 people after "explosives" were thrown at officers when a protest turned violent in the city's Capitol Hill neighborhood on Saturday.

NJBob · 2020-08-08T01:52:48.219Z

AZslim:

Safiel:

NJBob:

Safiel:

Add the fact that Russia did all the hard work against the Wehrmacht.

The United States got the advantage of facing only the depleted shell of the former Wehrmacht.

Untrue.

Many of the German soldiers the US faced were battle hardened Wehrmacht and SS veterans rotated out of the East to the Western Front. The battle of Normandy, June thru August, was as intense as anything in the East.

They had some vicious battles.

But not nearly the battle they would have to face had the Russians not worn down the Wermacht.

The United States lost about 407,300 worldwide during WWII.

Russia lost, at a minimum, 8,668,000, mostly against Germany.

Without the Russians absorbing so much loss and inflicting so much loss on the Germans, I estimate our military losses at a minimum would have exceeded 4 million in Europe alone.

Yes, we fought fierce battles and lost lots of men, but only a fraction of what we might have lost.

This is correct.

To minimize what the US faced in Europe in WWII is false.

AZslim · 2020-08-08T02:01:46.861Z

NJBob:

AZslim:

Safiel:

NJBob:

Safiel:

Add the fact that Russia did all the hard work against the Wehrmacht.

The United States got the advantage of facing only the depleted shell of the former Wehrmacht.

Untrue.

Many of the German soldiers the US faced were battle hardened Wehrmacht and SS veterans rotated out of the East to the Western Front. The battle of Normandy, June thru August, was as intense as anything in the East.

They had some vicious battles.

But not nearly the battle they would have to face had the Russians not worn down the Wermacht.

The United States lost about 407,300 worldwide during WWII.

Russia lost, at a minimum, 8,668,000, mostly against Germany.

Without the Russians absorbing so much loss and inflicting so much loss on the Germans, I estimate our military losses at a minimum would have exceeded 4 million in Europe alone.

Yes, we fought fierce battles and lost lots of men, but only a fraction of what we might have lost.

This is correct.

To minimize what the US faced in Europe in WWII is false.

It wasn’t minimized, it’s truthful. In June of '44 the best troops were fighting for their lives on the eastern front. A total 0f 58 out of 300 divisions were stationed in France, Belguim and the Netherlands, with many troops being green. They did have some very experienced NCO’s thrown in and some good units. There is a lot of information on this.

NJBob · 2020-08-08T02:16:52.080Z

AZslim:

NJBob:

AZslim:

Safiel:

NJBob:

Safiel:

Add the fact that Russia did all the hard work against the Wehrmacht.

The United States got the advantage of facing only the depleted shell of the former Wehrmacht.

Untrue.

Many of the German soldiers the US faced were battle hardened Wehrmacht and SS veterans rotated out of the East to the Western Front. The battle of Normandy, June thru August, was as intense as anything in the East.

They had some vicious battles.

But not nearly the battle they would have to face had the Russians not worn down the Wermacht.

The United States lost about 407,300 worldwide during WWII.

Russia lost, at a minimum, 8,668,000, mostly against Germany.

Without the Russians absorbing so much loss and inflicting so much loss on the Germans, I estimate our military losses at a minimum would have exceeded 4 million in Europe alone.

Yes, we fought fierce battles and lost lots of men, but only a fraction of what we might have lost.

This is correct.

To minimize what the US faced in Europe in WWII is false.

It wasn’t minimized, it’s truthful. In June of '44 the best troops were fighting for their lives on the eastern front. A total 0f 58 out of 300 divisions were stationed in France, Belguim and the Netherlands, with many troops being green. They did have some very experienced NCO’s thrown in and some good units. There is a lot of information on this.

During the battle of Normandy no less than 6 SS panzer divisions were engaged in the fighting.

Comparing US losses to Soviet losses is way off base. The US did not send soldiers into battle without weapons and tell them to pick up the weapons of the fallen. We didn’t have political officers ready to shoot our soldiers if the dared to retreat.

Not all of Germany’s best troops were in the East. The Germans regularly rotated veteran unit to the West.

To say that the US faced only worn down Wehrmacht troops is completely wrong.

AZslim · 2020-08-08T02:38:30.012Z

NJBob:

AZslim:

NJBob:

AZslim:

Safiel:

NJBob:

Safiel:

Add the fact that Russia did all the hard work against the Wehrmacht.

The United States got the advantage of facing only the depleted shell of the former Wehrmacht.

Untrue.

Many of the German soldiers the US faced were battle hardened Wehrmacht and SS veterans rotated out of the East to the Western Front. The battle of Normandy, June thru August, was as intense as anything in the East.

They had some vicious battles.

But not nearly the battle they would have to face had the Russians not worn down the Wermacht.

The United States lost about 407,300 worldwide during WWII.

Russia lost, at a minimum, 8,668,000, mostly against Germany.

Without the Russians absorbing so much loss and inflicting so much loss on the Germans, I estimate our military losses at a minimum would have exceeded 4 million in Europe alone.

Yes, we fought fierce battles and lost lots of men, but only a fraction of what we might have lost.

This is correct.

To minimize what the US faced in Europe in WWII is false.

It wasn’t minimized, it’s truthful. In June of '44 the best troops were fighting for their lives on the eastern front. A total 0f 58 out of 300 divisions were stationed in France, Belguim and the Netherlands, with many troops being green. They did have some very experienced NCO’s thrown in and some good units. There is a lot of information on this.

During the battle of Normandy no less than 6 SS panzer divisions were engaged in the fighting.

Comparing US losses to Soviet losses is way off base. The US did not send soldiers into battle without weapons and tell them to pick up the weapons of the fallen. We didn’t have political officers ready to shoot our soldiers if the dared to retreat.

Not all of Germany’s best troops were in the East. The Germans regularly rotated veteran unit to the West.

To say that the US faced only worn down Wehrmacht troops is completely wrong.

I didn’t say that. After almost 5 years of war and 3 years since the invasion of Russia and being mostly in retreat since the debacle in Stalingrad early in '43, they whole army was beaten down. Plus we had virtually complete air superiority on the entire western front. (Thanks to the success of our strategic bombing campaign)

There was a lot of tough fighting. I’m not trying to minimize anything, the history is there. The war was over 11 months after we landed.

BTW, the business of the Russains sending in troops without rifles is myth. There TINY kernel of truth during the first few days of the German invasion encircled huge numbers of them and some escaped without weapons to fight again.