WAPO, CNN, Brookings, CheckYourFact.com, Politifact agree: Biden claim that billionaires pay only an 8% tax rate is false

Gaius · 2024-03-15T02:32:03.744Z

DougBH:

A household exemption on a sales tax? That tax is usually paid by the seller. Who would expect everyone to record every purchase they made?
In Texas, where we have a sales tax but no income tax, necessities such as food and medicine are exempt from the sales tax. If an IPad is purchased, the seller pays a sales tax regardless of their income.

A value-added tax is also easy peasy. (so easy they already do it in many European countries).

Joe’s Steakhouse
Pays $10 for a steak.
Cooks it and sells it for $25.
Pays tax on the $15 mark-up.

Chez Foo-foo
Pays $10 for a steak.
Cooks it and sells it for $100.
Pays a tax on the $90 mark-up.

DougBH · 2024-03-15T11:18:52.146Z

Gaius:

DougBH:

A household exemption on a sales tax? That tax is usually paid by the seller. Who would expect everyone to record every purchase they made?
In Texas, where we have a sales tax but no income tax, necessities such as food and medicine are exempt from the sales tax. If an IPad is purchased, the seller pays a sales tax regardless of their income.

A consumption based income tax is easy peasy, certainly not more difficult than our current 6,781 page tax code with 68,129 pages of regulations and guidance (plus 100,000’s of pages of case law.)

Line 1) What did you earn?
Line 2) Subtract what you saved/invested
Line 3) Subtract $40,000
Line 4) Pay X% of the rest.

Easier? By that standard an income tax is

What did you earn?
Pay x%

DougBH · 2024-03-15T11:20:11.772Z

Of course the cost of the steak includes labor and overhead before it is sold. You really want to just apply a certain percentage to the sales price or you are left with a sort of income tax.

Gaius · 2024-03-15T11:28:57.498Z

DougBH:

Easier? By that standard an income tax is

What did you earn?

Pay x%

Your statement would be true if we were comparing a flat (income) tax
to a CBIT. Apples-to-apples a consumption based income tax is far simpler than our current 6,781 page tax code.

Of course, hypothetically, Congress could muck-up the definition of “investment” or “consumption” by overcomplicating it. (Is mortgage interest an investment or consumption? Is insurance consumption or investment?) But even in such a case there is zero reason to think Congress would make a CBIT more complicated than our current hodge podge.

DougBH:

And that is a sales tax as calculated in Texas. Of course the cost of the steak includes labor and overhead before it is sold.

I know nothing about the Texas tax code, but generally a sales tax is on the gross amount of sale.

DougBH · 2024-03-15T11:33:00.588Z

Ok. I looked up VAT. It’s like a sales tax except added at different levels of production instead of just at the final sale. Seems like an unnecessary complication to me.

DougBH · 2024-03-15T11:39:04.169Z

Gaius:

Of course, hypothetically, Congress could muck-up the definition of “investment” or “consumption” by overcomplicating it.

You still have to start out with what was “earned”. Wouldn’t that be just as difficult as calculating the “income” part of an income tax?
The difference in your tax is that reinvesting income on a personal level would be given the advantages of a company reinvesting its profits (say to open new stores or buy new equipment) and expensing the costs to calculate income.

Gaius · 2024-03-15T11:54:52.710Z

DougBH:

Gaius:

Of course, hypothetically, Congress could muck-up the definition of “investment” or “consumption” by overcomplicating it.

You still have to start out with what was “earned”. Wouldn’t that be just as difficult as calculating the “income” part of an income tax?
The difference in your tax is that reinvesting income on a personal level would be given the advantages of a company reinvesting its profits (say to open new stores or buy new equipment) and expensing the costs to calculate income.

If the topic confuses you you can think of it this way.

Under the current tax code there are provisions IRAs.
The annual contribution limit for 2023 is $6,500, or $7,500 if you’re age 50 or older.
You cannot withdraw the money until you retire.
You are taxed on the withdrawal as if it were income.

A CBIT works a little like adding a line to the tax form that allows an unlimited temporary deduction for amounts you do not see, do not touch and do not spend but instead impound with a bank or broker.

gooddad409 · 2024-03-15T13:31:23.089Z

Gaius:

WuWei:

Gasoline and tobacco have a national sales tax in practice.

Not 30%? What’s your number?

And if it replaces income tax, what will happen next? What will government have to do?

I dunno what number to use.
In general consumption taxes are better for the economy than income taxes.
Thus in general a national sales ta that replaces part of income taxes would be a good thing

The first number that comes to mind is 12.4%.
That is a replacement for
6.2% – employer portion of OASDI tax, plus
6.2% – employee portion of OASDI tax.

Never support new taxes!

Eventually you have the new taxes and the full amount of old taxes as well.

I thought you were a conservative?

None of the conservatives i know support new taxes.

Cratic3947 · 2024-03-15T15:24:35.435Z

There is no proof that raising federal taxes lowers the deficit in the long run. In fact it is obvious that raising taxes just causes more debt.

Cratic3947 · 2024-03-15T15:28:13.111Z

Nemesis:

Impenitent:

since when do villains pay anything?

This is why we need a national sales tax. Even villains buy houses, cars, etc.

National sales tax to replace income tax makes sure all that under the table income pays it fair share.

That just makes people poorer. Why do you want to make people poorer?

And there is absolutely no proof raising fed taxes decreases the debt… Just the opposite in fact. See history.

Gaius · 2024-03-15T15:39:58.091Z

Yes I am opposed to corporate bailouts (even the Trump bailouts)
I am opposed to spending increases (even the Trump spending increases.)

I have stated twice on this thread that relacing one tax with another would be a good thing but that the sad reality is we would probably just wind up with both.

The dad reality is that some people have to ignore that
They must deceitfully pretend that never happened, and then change the subject to smear me.

I am not sue what their motivation is. “Defend spending increases and bailouts at any cost” I guess.

gooddad409 · 2024-03-15T15:50:17.353Z

Gaius:

Yes I am opposed to corporate bailouts (even the Trump bailouts)
I am opposed to spending increases (even the Trump spending increases.)

I have stated twice on this thread that relacing one tax with another would be a good thing but that the sad reality is we would probably just wind up with both.

The dad reality is that some people have to ignore that
They must deceitfully pretend that never happened, and then change the subject to smear me.

I am not sue what their motivation is. "Defend spending increases and bailouts at any cost" I guess.

Are you somehow trying to connect me with Defend spending increases and bailouts?

Based on what?

A good place to cut spending would be quit pissing away our money in Ukraine.

Tens of billions to try and defend their borders while allowing ours to be overrun?

As for the new taxes a good example would be how the income tax got started in Cali.

A 1 percent tax in exchange for some sales tax decreases.

Now they have a 14 percent income tax and one of the highest sales taxes in the country.

Nemesis · 2024-03-15T15:51:36.569Z

Cratic3947:

Nemesis:

Impenitent:

since when do villains pay anything?

This is why we need a national sales tax. Even villains buy houses, cars, etc.

National sales tax to replace income tax makes sure all that under the table income pays it fair share.

That just makes people poorer. Why do you want to make people poorer?

And there is absolutely no proof raising fed taxes decreases the debt… Just the opposite in fact. See history.

I dont think replacing income tax (federal) with sales tax would not make people poorer. Though of course there would need to be a system of credits for those who dont earn enough to pay tax.

Obviously I have not put together a detailed proposal and commissioned a study but I think its a topic worthy of exploration.

e7alr · 2024-03-15T15:52:50.449Z

The secret is to tax all securities transactions at time of sale. Get rid of income and capital gains taxes. The tax wouldn’t have to be large, due to the sheer volume of trades per day. The overwhelming number of trades occur in the public market and are already tracked. The buyer pays as part of the per share price. The financial firm collects the tax and forwards it to the treasury. No more non-profits, no more use of the tax code to threaten speech, no more individual income tax filing, no more special carve outs for some, but not all.

Nemesis · 2024-03-15T15:52:55.583Z

DougBH:

A household exemption on a sales tax? That tax is usually paid by the seller. Who would expect everyone to record every purchase they made?
In Texas, where we have a sales tax but no income tax, necessities such as food and medicine are exempt from the sales tax. If an IPad is purchased, the seller pays a sales tax regardless of their income.

Easy enough make food and medicine exempt from a national sales tax. States can continue to do what they like.

Nemesis · 2024-03-15T15:54:52.168Z

DougBH:

Ok. I looked up VAT. It’s like a sales tax except added at different levels of production instead of just at the final sale. Seems like an unnecessary complication to me.

In the UK there is no sales tax added to the cost of an item as VAT is already included by the seller.

Very easy for businesses to fall foul of VAT if they do not keep meticulous records and regular payments.

gooddad409 · 2024-03-15T15:57:10.514Z

Cratic3947:

Nemesis:

Impenitent:

since when do villains pay anything?

This is why we need a national sales tax. Even villains buy houses, cars, etc.

National sales tax to replace income tax makes sure all that under the table income pays it fair share.

That just makes people poorer. Why do you want to make people poorer?

And there is absolutely no proof raising fed taxes decreases the debt… Just the opposite in fact. See history.

Raising taxes does nothing to decrease debt when people like Biden, Shumer, and Pelosi just increase spending by that much and then some.

gooddad409 · 2024-03-15T15:58:44.529Z

Nemesis:

DougBH:

Ok. I looked up VAT. It’s like a sales tax except added at different levels of production instead of just at the final sale. Seems like an unnecessary complication to me.

In the UK there is no sales tax added to the cost of an item as VAT is already included by the seller.

Very easy for businesses to fall foul of VAT if they do not keep meticulous records and regular payments.

The UK would be the last folks we should emulate imo.

Gaius · 2024-03-15T16:21:39.475Z

No I am simply pointing out that twice On this thread I said a cnahnge to a new tax in place of out existing tax would be a good thing.

Then almost as if you had not seen those, you acted as if I had not said that.

Seems like a pretty long extended (dishonest?) stretch for you to make to imply I ma not a conservative. Are you still mad that I called Trump “Captain bailout” or something

Nemesis · 2024-03-15T16:23:54.205Z

gooddad409:

Nemesis:

DougBH:

Ok. I looked up VAT. It’s like a sales tax except added at different levels of production instead of just at the final sale. Seems like an unnecessary complication to me.

In the UK there is no sales tax added to the cost of an item as VAT is already included by the seller.

Very easy for businesses to fall foul of VAT if they do not keep meticulous records and regular payments.

The UK would be the last folks we should emulate imo.

Did I say the US should? Just giving additional insight into VAT.