Vaccines, questions and answers

Samm · 2020-12-18T02:32:19.586Z

So I wonder why it has to be stored at -90F. That’s awfully darned cold. It requires two or three stage compressors. And just as curious, why does the Moderna vaccine not require that extreme of low temperatures?

Back in the 80s, I operated a guarded hot box (an apparatus used to measure heat loss of wall sections and fenestration) that was capable of temperatures down to -55F. The refrigeration unit was very expensive, fairly complicated to run, and took over an hour to achieve -50F in about 120 cubic feet of space. I’m sure cold technology has improved since then, but still, those type of freezers have got to be expensive and, I expect, temperamental.

amadeus · 2020-12-18T02:39:07.333Z

Samm:

So I wonder why it has to be stored at -90F. That’s awfully darned cold. It requires two or three stage compressors. And just as curious, why does the Moderna vaccine not require that extreme of low temperatures?

Back in the 80s, I operated a guarded hot box (an apparatus used to measure heat loss of wall sections and fenestration) that was capable of temperatures down to -55F. The refrigeration unit was very expensive, fairly complicated to run, and took over an hour to achieve -50F in about 120 cubic feet of space. I’m sure cold technology has improved since then, but still, those type of freezers have got to be expensive and, I expect, temperamental.

Liquid nitrogen?

FlameHeart · 2020-12-18T03:27:09.912Z

That is good news. I’m glad. Less risk of side effects.

FlameHeart · 2020-12-18T04:48:06.729Z

I wonder if labs in Alaska don’t need freezers. They just say, “just put the vials and microtesttubes outside and bury them in some snow until tomorrow morning.”

SottoVoce · 2020-12-18T06:08:12.785Z

Samm:

So I wonder why it has to be stored at -90F. That’s awfully darned cold. It requires two or three stage compressors. And just as curious, why does the Moderna vaccine not require that extreme of low temperatures?

Back in the 80s, I operated a guarded hot box (an apparatus used to measure heat loss of wall sections and fenestration) that was capable of temperatures down to -55F. The refrigeration unit was very expensive, fairly complicated to run, and took over an hour to achieve -50F in about 120 cubic feet of space. I’m sure cold technology has improved since then, but still, those type of freezers have got to be expensive and, I expect, temperamental.

Here’s an article about that. Seems it has to do with the lipids that are used.

Because the specific formulations are secret, Liu says, it’s not clear exactly why these two mRNA vaccines have different temperature requirements.

“It just comes down to what their data is,” she says of Moderna’s vaccine. “If their data shows that it’s more stable at a certain temperature, that’s it.”

Moderna spokesperson Colleen Hussey explained to NPR in an email that its vaccine doesn’t need to be kept so cold because of its particular “lipid nanoparticle properties and structure,” and because the company has learned from experience — it’s developed ten mRNA vaccine candidates already. “Now we don’t need [ultra-cold conditions] as the quality of product has improved and [it] doesn’t need to be highly frozen to avoid mRNA degradation,” Hussey explained.

NPR

Why Does Pfizer's COVID-19 Vaccine Need To Be Kept Colder Than Antarctica?

One of the two leading vaccine candidates requires deep, deep freezing. Here's how communities are working to solve for this and how the new Moderna vaccine could help.

Samm · 2020-12-18T07:38:45.725Z

FlameHeart:

I wonder if labs in Alaska don’t need freezers. They just say, “just put the vials and microtesttubes outside and bury them in some snow until tomorrow morning.”

You might want to check Accuweather.

Samm · 2020-12-18T07:56:32.850Z

Thanks. That’s very informative.

toreyj01 · 2020-12-18T13:23:59.090Z

conan:

Since this vaccine is coming out for public there are some concerns about it…specially after 2 people in Alaska had bad reaction/side effects to it. 1 in UK that I know of.

This was with Pfizer’s vaccine. Now I just read that FDA endorse Moderna’s vaccine which cleared the way for FDA leaders to authorize emergency mass distribution.

Some people have allergies which might effect you differently.

I also asked @toreyj01 to participate in this thread…he’s been knowledgeable on this subject. So I asking you all to respect his time. If something is personal he said he will take PM.

This is non political thread…lets keep this way. Mods will be watching it closely.

Thanks, Conan. Happy to help if I can.

toreyj01 · 2020-12-18T13:25:27.555Z

conan:

Over the years…well last couple decades I’ve been getting my shots at my local pharmacist, from flue shots and other medication to tetanus shots. It was something that I’ve started doing since I only had catastrophic insurance and I pay out of pocket.

Now I understand that Pfizer has to keep there vaccine at such a low temperature I’m somewhat concern about it’s safety. Do local pharmacist have ability to store it safely for consumers?

We were talking about 2 Alaska cases…which might be the cause of those two negative reaction/sides effects.

That is only for transport. Once it arrives at a destination you have roughly a week in a normal fridge and it is still effective.

toreyj01 · 2020-12-18T13:30:02.874Z

FlameHeart:

Question I asked in the political coronavirus thread:
Coronavirus Thread Political II - #9548 by FlameHeart

You have, in the vaccine…

The mRNA agent
Fats to deliver the agent to the cell
Salts to stabilize the solution (PH)
Sugar to preserve it during the freezing process

That’s it. No thermisol, no mercury.

toreyj01 · 2020-12-18T13:32:15.358Z

conan:

There was also a question about being allergic to penicillin and how that would fit in.

Not related to folks with specific allergies to any one thing. We are worried about atopes, people with massive reactions to multiple sources. These are the people who never leave the house without an Epi pen. These folks should avoid the vaccine.

toreyj01 · 2020-12-18T13:37:31.186Z

FlameHeart:

How does the Pfizer vaccine correlate to the incidences of Bell’s Palsy? I originally thought that BP was genetic, since it concerns the activity and formation of the 7th cranial nerve.

Does the Pfizer vaccine alter or damage this nerve in some way? I know it targets mRNA which would cause cells to present part of the virus’ glycoprotein (the “spikes” or surface structures that allow it to attach to host cells), but I don’t know how this translates to Bell’s Palsy.

There is probably about a 1 in 10,000 risk of getting Bell’s Palsy from the vaccine, but some in the placebo group got it as well. It may be incidental, since 23-35 people out of 100k people experience Bell’s Palsy anyway. Those that did get it mostly have seen resolution of it in a short time.

Toll_Collector · 2020-12-18T14:21:28.126Z

toreyj01:

Not related to folks with specific allergies to any one thing. We are worried about atopes, people with massive reactions to multiple sources. These are the people who never leave the house without an Epi pen. These folks should avoid the vaccine.

Not that I am taking the vaccine anyway, but I have an Epi Pen due to a severe reactions to being stung by wasps. Maybe bees, I forget which trigger the reaction. That’s the only thing I’ve ever had a reaction from. I’m also not allergic to anything. Well, besides that. So because of a reaction to wasp stings I shouldn’t take the vaccine? If so, at least I’ll have an excuse.

toreyj01 · 2020-12-18T14:36:21.070Z

Toll_Collector:

toreyj01:

Not related to folks with specific allergies to any one thing. We are worried about atopes, people with massive reactions to multiple sources. These are the people who never leave the house without an Epi pen. These folks should avoid the vaccine.

Not that I am taking the vaccine anyway, but I have an Epi Pen due to a severe reactions to being stung by wasps. Maybe bees, I forget which trigger the reaction. That’s the only thing I’ve ever had a reaction from. I’m also not allergic to anything. Well, besides that. So because of a reaction to wasp stings I shouldn’t take the vaccine? If so, at least I’ll have an excuse.

You have a history of anaphylaxis, you shouldn’t get the shot.

Toll_Collector · 2020-12-18T14:52:50.847Z

toreyj01:

You have a history of anaphylaxis, you shouldn’t get the shot.

WoW. It’s happened to me only twice. The last time was over 20 years ago. Both times I was stung. Do people know this?

toreyj01 · 2020-12-18T15:00:43.479Z

Toll_Collector:

toreyj01:

You have a history of anaphylaxis, you shouldn’t get the shot.

WoW. It’s happened to me only twice. The last time was over 20 years ago. Both times I was stung. Do people know this?

That I do not know, but I do know if you have a history of anaphylaxis, you should at the very least consult with your Physician before even thinking about getting the vaccine. Let the rest of us get it, and we will protect you.

conan · 2020-12-19T18:53:56.308Z

I see in Chicago medical hospital there was 4 people had allergic reactions to Pfizer vaccine…out of 3000 that have received it.

Samm · 2020-12-19T20:39:27.071Z

It seems (so far) that allergic reactions are in clusters. That would suggest something related to specific batches of vaccine, would it not?

conan · 2020-12-20T02:26:40.340Z

Might be…delivery?

janer · 2020-12-22T14:25:38.446Z

There are always concerns when people have allergies to components of a vaccine. I understand that two of the people who had severe reactions were in this category and did, in fact, carry Epi pens routinely.
A family member who is in the medical field had the first Pfeizer vaccination (gets the 2nd in three weeks) last week. He said his arm felt slightly sore at the vaccination site for about a half day, he had no fever or other negative reaction. He is a senior citizen, but with no significant allergies or underlying heath conditions.