Trump intended to break up NATO and alliance with South Korea if he was re-elected

[Supreme_War_Pig]

@DougBH

@Supreme_War_Pig

@e7alr

Believe what you wish. It won’t change reality of what the European powers have done to their armed forces and where they spent the money.

To paraphrase St. Reagan:

Conservatives know a lot that just isn’t so.

How would he prove anything listed as facts in his post? Seems to be enough detail here to have changed the burden of proof.
Or…no matter what he says or documents, nothing can prevent someone from saying “canard”.
It’s like one poster here will reply to a huge post containing facts and type simply “debunked” and think he has countered an argument masterfully.

I am not disputing the numbers, I am disputing the notion that social spending is reducing military spending.

It is easy to masterfully debunk arguments that you guys make when you can’t provide evidence.

[Supreme_War_Pig]

@e7alr

The numbers don’t lie. Germany spent 3-4% of GDP to maintain their military readiness until the mid 80s. It was solidly above 2.5% until 1991 (1st year after reunification and one year before the break up of the Soviet Union). It then quickly fell below 2% and settled just above 1.2% of GDP. 2004 was the year formal force reductions in the German Armed Forces were announced.

After reunification several social programs have been created or expanded and the trend continues today. Social welfare programs by 2018 were 996 Billion Euro(25%+ of the German Budget). But he will still stammer and waffle and shout prove it.

Added: German defense spending was 1.18% (46.51 Billion Euro) in 2018. 996 Billion Euro > 46.51 Billion Euro.

Cool. It should now be a simple step to show that social spending is dinging military spending.

[DougBH]

@Supreme_War_Pig

@DougBH

@Supreme_War_Pig

@e7alr

Believe what you wish. It won’t change reality of what the European powers have done to their armed forces and where they spent the money.

To paraphrase St. Reagan:

Conservatives know a lot that just isn’t so.

How would he prove anything listed as facts in his post? Seems to be enough detail here to have changed the burden of proof.
Or…no matter what he says or documents, nothing can prevent someone from saying “canard”.
It’s like one poster here will reply to a huge post containing facts and type simply “debunked” and think he has countered an argument masterfully.

I am not disputing the numbers, I am disputing the notion that social spending is reducing military spending.

It is easy to masterfully debunk arguments made without evidence.

However, it is indisputable that money not used for social programs could be used for military obligations, and visa versa. Whether it would be is in the minds of the politicians. Our job is to defend ourselves and not be the patsy for those who want to shirk their responsibilities. Those aren’t mutually exclusive goals.

[Ben_Natuf]

didn’t get them from obama.

[Supreme_War_Pig]

@DougBH

@Supreme_War_Pig

@DougBH

@Supreme_War_Pig

@e7alr

Believe what you wish. It won’t change reality of what the European powers have done to their armed forces and where they spent the money.

To paraphrase St. Reagan:

Conservatives know a lot that just isn’t so.

How would he prove anything listed as facts in his post? Seems to be enough detail here to have changed the burden of proof.
Or…no matter what he says or documents, nothing can prevent someone from saying “canard”.
It’s like one poster here will reply to a huge post containing facts and type simply “debunked” and think he has countered an argument masterfully.

I am not disputing the numbers, I am disputing the notion that social spending is reducing military spending.

It is easy to masterfully debunk arguments made without evidence.

However, it is indisputable that money not used for social programs could be used for military obligations, and visa versa. Whether it would be is in the minds of the politicians. Our job is to defend ourselves and not be the patsy for those who want to shirk their responsibilities. Those aren’t mutually exclusive goals.

Again, I don’t disagree with anything here.

I am simply asking for proof that NATO countries are shirking military spending for social programs.

This is an article of faith on the right, and I say it’s high time to prove it.

[e7alr]

Germany runs deficits. It has to choose between defense and social programs. 2004 mentioned above was a standout year for defense cuts and social welfare expansion. They have been shorting military readiness to underpin social spending every since. Why? Because they figured that the US would carry the load. Now if they take away anything their version of progressives will fill the streets in outrage.

If you don’t have the intellectual ability to acknowledge the reality of fiscal choices in a welfare state you’re on your own.

[Ben_Natuf]

gods man they’ve been doing it for decades, denial and willful ignorance won’t make it not so. its not about breaking any bank, its about keeping commitments.

[DougBH]

You mean like a statement from the majority of the legislative body of Germany that they are shirking defense obligations in order to spend the money on social programs?

[Supreme_War_Pig]

@e7alr

Germany runs deficits. It has to choose between defense and social programs. 2004 mentioned above was a standout year for defense cuts and social welfare expansion. They have been shorting military readiness to underpin social spending every since. Why? Because they figured that the US would carry the load. Now if they take away anything their version of progressives will fill the streets in outrage.

If you don’t have the intellectual ability to acknowledge the reality of fiscal choices in a welfare state you’re on your own.

WE run deficits. That doesn’t prove a damn thing.

Also, no need to be rude. Just prove your assertion or admit defeat. Easy peasy.

[Supreme_War_Pig]

@DougBH

You mean like a statement from the majority of the legislative body of Germany that they are shirking defense obligations in order to spend the money on social programs?

Yeah. Totally. Do you have a link to such a thing?

[e7alr]

OCED document from 2011, outlining how Germany’s spending is too great. Germany had to cut most programs, but cut government infrastructure 10,000 positions and Defense man power 40,000 positions to limit cuts to the social welfare programs. That is a military manpower cut larger than their entire Air Force (28,000) or Navy (16,000) It would represent a reduction of 2 heavy divisions from their Army. This is just one years example of Germany’s choices to fund the welfare state over national defense.

Outline of German Budget Decisions 2010

[Supreme_War_Pig]

@e7alr

OCED document from 2011, outlining how Germany’s spending is too great. Germany had to cut most programs, but cut government infrastructure 10,000 positions and Defense man power 40,000 positions to limit cuts to the social welfare programs. That is a military manpower cut larger than their entire Air Force (28,000) or Navy (16,000) It would represent a reduction of 2 heavy divisions from their Army. This is just one years example of Germany’s choices to fund the welfare state over national defense.

Outline of German Budget Decisions 2010

Thank you, I appreciate it.

[Cratic3947]

Odd how the modern left seems to love NATO these days, but not when they actually had a mission defending us from the USSR …

[e7alr]

German GDP spent on defense:

2009 1.36%
2010 1.32%
2011 1.25%

So even though they were already failing to meet their NATO commitments they still cut defense to save welfare spending from greater cuts.

[DougBH]

Wow. I was just kidding.

[NJBob]

Got them from Biden.

[Ben_Natuf]

biden continued to send what trump started sending. you asked what trump did, i told you. more than obama, he actually sent weapons. biden is doing nothing different than what trump started.

[NJBob]

Great, some credit to Biden.

[e7alr]

Sometime you have to use armor piercing to drive the point home. The German government was just one of many Western European powers paying lip service to the 2% GDP at the annual meetings.

[Supreme_War_Pig]

@e7alr

Sometime you have to use armor piercing to drive the point home. The German government was just one of many Western European powers paying lip service to the 2% GDP at the annual meetings.

And sometimes, you have to ignore the fact that the numbers provided are from a decade ago from a country in the midst of the financial crisis. And actually still don’t prove this assertion.

But other times, you can accept the mythology as fact because it confirms your bias.