Trump: General Robert E. Lee was a great general

[Phaedrus]

Isn’t the problem here that Trump had to reach back 150 years, to a treasonous general, to find an example of a “great person on both sides”?

[Jezcoe]

@NJBob

@Calvin_Reagan

@NJBob

It’s complicated. In Lee’s opinion he was being a loyal Virginian.

Prior to the Civil War people saw the United States as a confederation of independent states, not as a single country.

And if your state decided to become a foreign country and attack fellow Americans, you would be all for defending your state, right?

When people say he was defending his state, what they really mean, he was defending Virginia’s right to discriminate against black people and slavery. That’s a hard thing for people to legitimately defend.

As I said, it’s complicated. When the Civil War started, the United States was a plural, after the war it was a singular.

Applying today’s standards to a time 150 years ago is difficult.

Lee was standing up for his home, as he saw it. Slavery was surely part of it but I do not believe it was his primary consideration.

I am not defending the fact that he was a slave owner, but he acted honorably as he understood it.

Slavery was the central dividing issue for the decades leading up to the Civil War.

Lee chose poorly. His rightfully lost.

Removing Statues honoring the leaders of a military and a nation that existed to preserve slavery should be a no braner.

[NJBob]

@Jezcoe

@NJBob

@Calvin_Reagan

@NJBob

It’s complicated. In Lee’s opinion he was being a loyal Virginian.

Prior to the Civil War people saw the United States as a confederation of independent states, not as a single country.

And if your state decided to become a foreign country and attack fellow Americans, you would be all for defending your state, right?

When people say he was defending his state, what they really mean, he was defending Virginia’s right to discriminate against black people and slavery. That’s a hard thing for people to legitimately defend.

As I said, it’s complicated. When the Civil War started, the United States was a plural, after the war it was a singular.

Applying today’s standards to a time 150 years ago is difficult.

Lee was standing up for his home, as he saw it. Slavery was surely part of it but I do not believe it was his primary consideration.

I am not defending the fact that he was a slave owner, but he acted honorably as he understood it.

Slavery was the central dividing issue for the decades leading up to the Civil War.

Lee chose poorly. His rightfully lost.

Removing Statues honoring the leaders of a military and a nation that existed to preserve slavery should be a no braner.

I don’t disagree, but I don’t think Lee was an evil man. He was a man of his time.

[Jezcoe]

Not saying that he was an evil man.

There is no reason though to give him a place of honor.

[NJBob]

@Jezcoe

Not saying that he was an evil man.

There is no reason though to give him a place of honor.

Agreed.

[wiley8425]

Why? Because it isn’t the norm today? Would Lee be a traitor today? Sure. Was he back then? Would he be today if the North had lost the civil war? Perspective’s a bitch.

[NJBob]

Context is a bitch.

[CaughtInTheMiddle]

General Lee fought against the United States and had his soldiers kill US military members.

[wiley8425]

Let me know when you actually put something in context.

[NJBob]

@CaughtInTheMiddle

General Lee fought against the United States and had his soldiers kill US military members.

Context, my friend, context.

At the beginning of the Civil War the United States was a plural.

Lee fought for his state.

[wiley8425]

Sure and before Lincoln decided to change it, the Union was formed by consent and the South was trying to break away from the Union. Were the Mexicans who fought us for Texas also traitors? Or were they simply fighting for their side?

[NJBob]

Oh, come on.

Are you not reading my posts?

[Jezcoe]

@wiley8425

Sure and before Lincoln decided to change it, the Union was formed by consent and the South was trying to break away from the Union. Were the Mexicans who fought us for Texas also traitors? Or were they simply fighting for their side?

Lincoln decided to change it… that is rich.

[wiley8425]

It’s history.

The secessionists claimed that according to the Constitution every state had the right to leave the Union. Lincoln claimed that they did not have that right. He opposed secession for these reasons:

1. Physically the states cannot separate.

2. Secession is unlawful.

3. A government that allows secession will disintegrate into anarchy.

4. That Americans are not enemies, but friends.

5. Secession would destroy the world’s only existing democracy, and prove for all time, to future Americans and to the world, that a government of the people cannot survive.

https://www.nps.gov/liho/learn/historyculture/secessiontableofcontents.htm

Not that I expect you to actually know that.

[Jezcoe]

@wiley8425

It’s history.

The secessionists claimed that according to the Constitution every state had the right to leave the Union. Lincoln claimed that they did not have that right. He opposed secession for these reasons:

1. Physically the states cannot separate.

2. Secession is unlawful.

3. A government that allows secession will disintegrate into anarchy.

4. That Americans are not enemies, but friends.

5. Secession would destroy the world’s only existing democracy, and prove for all time, to future Americans and to the world, that a government of the people cannot survive.

Lincoln on Secession - Lincoln Home National Historic Site (U.S. National Park Service)

Not that I expect you to actually know that.

The Confederate States claimed the right.

They did not have that right.

They were wrong.

Lincoln changed nothing.

[wiley8425]

Your opinion doesn’t change history. Or the facts.

[Jezcoe]

@wiley8425

Your opinion doesn’t change history. Or the facts.

It isn’t my opinion.

It is what actually happened.

[NJBob]

@wiley8425

It’s history.

The secessionists claimed that according to the Constitution every state had the right to leave the Union. Lincoln claimed that they did not have that right. He opposed secession for these reasons:

1. Physically the states cannot separate.

2. Secession is unlawful.

3. A government that allows secession will disintegrate into anarchy.

4. That Americans are not enemies, but friends.

5. Secession would destroy the world’s only existing democracy, and prove for all time, to future Americans and to the world, that a government of the people cannot survive.

Lincoln on Secession - Lincoln Home National Historic Site (U.S. National Park Service)

Not that I expect you to actually know that.

Are you addressing this to me? If so, thanks for the insult.

I am merely saying that Lee acted honorably as he understood it. I am not saying he was right.

[Calvin_Reagan]

@NJBob

As I said, it’s complicated. When the Civil War started, the United States was a plural, after the war it was a singular.

Applying today’s standards to a time 150 years ago is difficult.

Lee was standing up for his home, as he saw it. Slavery was surely part of it but I do not believe it was his primary consideration.

I am not defending the fact that he was a slave owner, but he acted honorably as he understood it.

I said nothing about him being a slave-owner. When you said, he was “defending his state”, he was de facto defending slavery and trying to make black people second-class citizens. If he really wanted to “defend” his state, he should have fought for the Americans, so he could actually defend everybody in his state. That includes those who pick cotton and clean houses, and serve food.

You say it’s complicated, but Lee choose the wrong side to defend. That’s nothing to be proud of, or have your own school and be put up in parks and government building. Museum yes!

And yes, Lee was an evil man. Are you really going to defend an American traitor?

[Calvin_Reagan]

@NJBob

Context, my friend, context.

At the beginning of the Civil War the United States was a plural.

Lee fought for his state.

The Confederacy was not part of the United States.