Well, I see you once again avoid answering the question asked and giving your opinion, on a perfectly legitimate question concerning the subject of the thread.

Hopefully Trump is re-elected so he can work to restore federal taxation within constitutional limits and end the un-constitutional, un-apportioned direct tax on a working person’s tips, which are property and require apportionment if taxed by our federal government.

JWK

“Under today’s authoritarian democrat party leadership, our government doesn’t help to fix the nation’s problems. It fixes the people, like Trump and his supporters, who dare to point to the nation’s problems”

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A simple “no” would have sufficed.

Crowd is on board with ending un-constitutional, un-apportioned, direct tax on tips

JWK

“To lay with one hand the power of the government on the property of the citizen [a working person’s earned wage] and with the other to bestow upon favored individuals, to aid private enterprises and build up private fortunes is none the less a robbery because it is done under forms of law and called taxation.”____ Savings and Loan Association v.Topeka,(1875).

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Hey Jez, our Supreme Court today in Moore v. United States repeatedly points out, in both the Majority and Dissenting opinions, that direct taxes are still required to be apportioned.

So, are you suggesting a federal tax on a working person’s earned wage is not a direct tax as our founders understood the phrase?

JWK

If, by calling a tax indirect when it is essentially direct, the rule of protection [apportionment] could be frittered away, one of the great landmarks defining the boundary between the nation and the states of which it is composed, would have disappeared, and with it one of the bulwarks of private rights and private property. POLLOCK v. FARMERS’ LOAN & TRUST CO., 157 U.S. 429 (1895) JUSTICE FULLER

Did they say anything about the taxes that come out of my paycheck?

The court repeatedly confirmed that direct taxes are still required to be apportioned.

So, do you consider a federal tax on your paycheck a direct tax as the term was understood during the time period our constitution was framed and ratified?

Is a federal tax on a waiter’s tips, which Trump wants to end, a direct tax and requires apportionment?

JWK


The whole aim of construction, as applied to a provision of the Constitution, is to discover the meaning, to ascertain and give effect to the intent of its framers and the people who adopted it.
_____HOME BLDG. & LOAN ASSOCIATION v. BLAISDELL, 290 U.S. 398 (1934)

A simple “no” would have been okay.

And you avoided a “no” or “yes”. But that’s you game, obfuscation, instigation and agitation.

If I were to stop paying income tax and then when caught I argue in court the exact same things that you are arguing right here, would I overturn over a hundred years of how the 16th amendment has been understood?

Would those arguments make the scales fall from the eyes of everyone and then all of a sudden the income tax would be declared to be UnConstitutional?

Do you in your heart of hearts think that is what would happen?

:roll_eyes:

True to your MO, you deflect from answering the question [Is a federal tax on a waiter’s tips, which Trump wants to end, a direct tax and requires apportionment?] and move into hypothetical land.

JWK

“To lay with one hand the power of the government on the property of the citizen [a working person’s earned wage] and with the other to bestow upon favored individuals, to aid private enterprises and build up private fortunes is none the less a robbery because it is done under forms of law and called taxation.”____ Savings and Loan Association v.Topeka,(1875).

A simple “No” would have sufficed.

And true to your petulant MO, you refuse to provide that “No” or “Yes”.

The fact is, historical documentation confirms a tax on a working person’s earned wages was within the category of a direct tax as understood during the time period our Constitution was framed and ratified.

As an advocate in adopting the Constitution, James Wilson (who was a prominent delegate to the Constitutional Convention) pointed out during Pennsylvania’s ratification debates that:

“In this Constitution, a power is given to Congress to collect imposts [an indirect type of tax], which is not given by the present Articles of Confederation. A very considerable part of the revenue of the United States will arise from that source; it is the easiest, most just, and most productive method of raising revenue; and it is a safe one, because it is voluntary. No man is obliged to consume more than he pleases, and each buys in proportion only to his consumption." Elliots VOL II, page 467 Wilson

So, a characteristic of an indirect tax is one which is voluntarily paid during the taxpayer’s consumption, and safe because no man is obliged to consume more than he pleases.

As to direct taxation, Oliver Elsworth, also a delegate to the Convention from Connecticut provides the following characteristics distinguishing a direct tax from one which is indirect.

”Direct taxation can go but little way towards raising a revenue. To raise money in this way, people must be provident; they must constantly be laying up money to answer the demands of the collector. But you cannot make people thus provident. If you would do any thing to the purpose, you must come in when they are spending, and take a part with them. This does not take away the tools of a man’s business, or the necessary utensils of his family: it only comes in when he is taking his pleasure, and feels generous; when he is laying out a shilling for superfluities, it takes twopence of it for public use, and the remainder will do him as much good as the whole.”

Elsworth goes on to note:

“The experiments, which have been made in our own country, show the productive nature of indirect taxes. The imports into the United States amount to a very large sum. They never will be less, but will continue to increase for centuries to come. As the population of our country increases, the imports will necessarily increase. They will increase, because our citizens will choose to be farmers; living independently on their freeholds, rather than to be manufacturers, and work for a groat a day.”

”On the other hand, direct taxes are not voluntary, nor, in general, are they avoidable. And with respect to direct taxes, the anti-federalist minority of the Convention of Pennsylvania warned that direct taxation “…is a tax that, however oppressive in its nature, and unequal in its operation, is certain as to its produce and simple in its collection; it cannot be evaded like the objects of imposts or excise …” ___ Connecticut ratification debates Elliot’s VOL II, page 92

Also see Adam Smith’s, Wealth of Nations, a contemporary writing of the time, which was familiar to many of our founders:

“Capitation taxes, so far as they are levied upon the lower ranks of people, are direct taxes upon the wages of labor.” Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations, id. at pg. 540.

Hopefully Trump will be re-elected on Nov. 5th, and will keep his promise to end the notoriously evil and slavish tax on the tips which working people earn by the sweat of their labor and is in fact their property.

JWK

“The property which every man has in his own labor, as it is the original foundation of all other property, so it is the most sacred and inviolable. The patrimony of the poor man lies in the strength and dexterity of his own hands; and to hinder him from employing this strength and dexterity in what manner he thinks proper, without injury to his neighbor, is a plain violation of this most sacred property.” ___ Butchers’ Union Co. v. Crescent City Co., 111 U.S. 746 (1884)

Has this ever been successfully argued in court?

I have no idea but if you are really interested, do the research. My focus is researching and documenting the meaning of our Constitution as it was understood during its framing and ratification time period.

Aside from that I see you avoided giving your opinion on whether or not a federal tax on a waiter’s tips, which Trump wants to end, is a direct tax and requires apportionment.

JWK


The whole aim of construction, as applied to a provision of the Constitution, is to discover the meaning, to ascertain and give effect to the intent of its framers and the people who adopted it.
_____HOME BLDG. & LOAN ASSOCIATION v. BLAISDELL, 290 U.S. 398 (1934)

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A simple “no” would have been fine.

Well, I see you are back to trolling.

I am trying to see if you will answer a simple question.

Have any of your arguments ever held up to scrutiny when argued in court?

It’s a simple yes or no.

And you won’t answer.

I know why.

It’s okay.

I answered your question. I wrote [see above]

"I have no idea . . . "

Instead of having a dialogue, you continue to obfuscate, instigate, agitate and troll.

The answer is no.

You know the answer is no.

Are you still believing that Romney BS?