zantax
November 3, 2020, 2:29pm
22
WuWei:
Not for murder.
Did McKeeson plan throwing bricks at cops? Did he specifically invite the brick thrower? Did he tell him to do it? Did he suggest they bring bricks?
Let’s change the scenario a bit: you plan a protest for 2nd Amendment Rights. I show up armed. I decide to shoot a cop a little bit.
Should you be held civilly liable for my trigger pulling?
If what you organized was a crime, yes. If I plan a bank robbery but tell my people not to shoot anyone and someone does it anyway, what happens? We charge every one of them with murder, don’t we?
WuWei
November 3, 2020, 2:34pm
23
zantax:
WuWei:
Not for murder.
Did McKeeson plan throwing bricks at cops? Did he specifically invite the brick thrower? Did he tell him to do it? Did he suggest they bring bricks?
Let’s change the scenario a bit: you plan a protest for 2nd Amendment Rights. I show up armed. I decide to shoot a cop a little bit.
Should you be held civilly liable for my trigger pulling?
If what you organized was a crime, yes. If I plan a bank robbery but tell my people not to shoot anyone and someone does it anyway, what happens? We charge every one of them with murder, don’t we?
Yes, and it’s wrong. What is right is to charge everybody with bank robbery and the killer with murder. Do you know why “we” do that?
Is protesting a “crime”? It’s certainly not bank robbery.
If the planner plans to throw bricks, gives instructions, hands out bricks, etc., that is something different. Did he?
zantax
November 3, 2020, 2:38pm
26
WuWei:
zantax:
WuWei:
Not for murder.
Did McKeeson plan throwing bricks at cops? Did he specifically invite the brick thrower? Did he tell him to do it? Did he suggest they bring bricks?
Let’s change the scenario a bit: you plan a protest for 2nd Amendment Rights. I show up armed. I decide to shoot a cop a little bit.
Should you be held civilly liable for my trigger pulling?
If what you organized was a crime, yes. If I plan a bank robbery but tell my people not to shoot anyone and someone does it anyway, what happens? We charge every one of them with murder, don’t we?
Yes, and it’s wrong. What is right is to charge everybody with bank robbery and the killer with murder. Do you know why “we” do that?
Is protesting a “crime”? It’s certainly not bank robbery.
If the planner plans to throw bricks, gives instructions, hands out bricks, etc., that is something different. Did he?
So then the courts would be inconsistent in this ruling agreed? Because charging them all has been the standard for a long while. And no, protesting is not automatically a crime, but protesting without a permit or in a manner that harms others is. Shutting down highways as an example, can cost people’s lives when emergency vehicles are impeded. We charge the people who plan bank robberies because they know the potential for someone being harmed when they planned it.
WuWei
November 3, 2020, 2:41pm
28
zantax:
WuWei:
zantax:
WuWei:
Not for murder.
Did McKeeson plan throwing bricks at cops? Did he specifically invite the brick thrower? Did he tell him to do it? Did he suggest they bring bricks?
Let’s change the scenario a bit: you plan a protest for 2nd Amendment Rights. I show up armed. I decide to shoot a cop a little bit.
Should you be held civilly liable for my trigger pulling?
If what you organized was a crime, yes. If I plan a bank robbery but tell my people not to shoot anyone and someone does it anyway, what happens? We charge every one of them with murder, don’t we?
Yes, and it’s wrong. What is right is to charge everybody with bank robbery and the killer with murder. Do you know why “we” do that?
Is protesting a “crime”? It’s certainly not bank robbery.
If the planner plans to throw bricks, gives instructions, hands out bricks, etc., that is something different. Did he?
So then the courts would be inconsistent in this ruling agreed? Because charging them all has been the standard for a long while. And no, protesting is not automatically a crime, but protesting without a permit or in a manner that harms others is. Shutting down highways as an example, can cost people’s lives when emergency vehicles are impeded. We charge the people who plan bank robberies because they know the potential for someone being harmed when they planned it.
For bank robberies yes, this wasn’t a bank robbery. When protestors block roads, do police arrest the planners or the people actually in tge road?
Did McKeeson plan to throw bricks?
zantax
November 3, 2020, 2:43pm
29
WuWei:
zantax:
WuWei:
zantax:
WuWei:
Not for murder.
Did McKeeson plan throwing bricks at cops? Did he specifically invite the brick thrower? Did he tell him to do it? Did he suggest they bring bricks?
Let’s change the scenario a bit: you plan a protest for 2nd Amendment Rights. I show up armed. I decide to shoot a cop a little bit.
Should you be held civilly liable for my trigger pulling?
If what you organized was a crime, yes. If I plan a bank robbery but tell my people not to shoot anyone and someone does it anyway, what happens? We charge every one of them with murder, don’t we?
Yes, and it’s wrong. What is right is to charge everybody with bank robbery and the killer with murder. Do you know why “we” do that?
Is protesting a “crime”? It’s certainly not bank robbery.
If the planner plans to throw bricks, gives instructions, hands out bricks, etc., that is something different. Did he?
So then the courts would be inconsistent in this ruling agreed? Because charging them all has been the standard for a long while. And no, protesting is not automatically a crime, but protesting without a permit or in a manner that harms others is. Shutting down highways as an example, can cost people’s lives when emergency vehicles are impeded. We charge the people who plan bank robberies because they know the potential for someone being harmed when they planned it.
For bank robberies yes, this wasn’t a bank robbery. When protestors block roads, do police arrest the planners or the people actually in tge road?
Did McKeeson plan to throw bricks?
If what they planned was blocking the road they should be charged with criminal conspiracy and held liable for any injury that occurs as a result. Just as any person who plans a gas station robbery would be.
WuWei
November 3, 2020, 2:49pm
30
Good Lord. Go read the Constitution.
zantax
November 3, 2020, 2:49pm
31
Care to be more specific?
zantax
November 3, 2020, 2:53pm
33
WuWei:
1st Amendment.
The first amendment means I can speak and protest anywhere and at any time? I don’t think so. Can I hold a protest in your living room next weekend? Just a few hundred of us. Nothing too big.
WuWei
November 3, 2020, 2:55pm
34
Sure, come on over. BYOB. I don’t have bricks.
You plan a protest. I shoot a cop. Which one of us is liable?
zantax
November 3, 2020, 2:57pm
35
WuWei:
Sure, come on over. BYOB. I don’t have bricks.
You plan a protest. I shoot a cop. Which one of us is liable?
Again, if what I planned was a crime. both of us. Same as if I planned a home invasion and one of my people murdered the occupant even though I told him not to do that.
zantax
November 3, 2020, 2:59pm
36
But lets use a more analogous crime, say shoplifting. If I shoplift and my partner injures the guard, am I blameless?
WuWei
November 3, 2020, 3:00pm
37
Protesting without a permit is not a crime, it is a violation of an ordinance. It’s not a home invasion.
Roads are public access.
You’re lashing out.
zantax
November 3, 2020, 3:08pm
38
Protesting without a permit can absolutely be a crime, depends. There are exceptions for spontaneous protests in response to recent events. But since we are talking about planned illegal protests that isn’t relevant. Nor would the crime be “illegal protest” but instead disorderly conduct or trespass. And public roads being public access does not mean you can legally obstruct others from using them without a permit.
And no, I am not lashing out, I thought I was having a legal discussion.
WuWei
November 3, 2020, 3:13pm
39
It is a violation of an ordinance. What are they charged with if run in?
Lashing out using the law like that is very dangerous.
The ruling was correct. Do the police work, find the guy who committed the crime and charge him.
zantax
November 3, 2020, 3:15pm
40
WuWei:
It is a violation of an ordinance. What are they charged with if run in?
Lashing out using the law like that is very dangerous.
The ruling was correct. Do the police work, find the guy who committed the crime and charge him.
Thought I already answered, the crimes they are usually charged with are disorderly, failure to follow a lawful order or trespass. All of which are crimes. If you conspire to commit a crime, you have committed criminal conspiracy.
WuWei
November 3, 2020, 3:17pm
41
zantax:
WuWei:
It is a violation of an ordinance. What are they charged with if run in?
Lashing out using the law like that is very dangerous.
The ruling was correct. Do the police work, find the guy who committed the crime and charge him.
Thought I already answered, the crimes they are usually charged with are disorderly, failure to follow a lawful order or trespass. All of which are crimes. If you conspire to commit a crime, you have committed criminal conspiracy.
Not “illegal protesting”?
zantax
November 3, 2020, 3:20pm
42
Are we into the semantics portion of the debate? If they planned and organized an illegal act, they are responsible if anyone gets hurt. Whether that be disorderly conduct or trespass. Calling it a protest doesn’t exempt you from those laws. Any more than calling my gas station heist a protest would.
