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it’s never been more profitable to be sensationalist.

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NATO exists the way it does because we want it to.

Our strategic concept of maintaining military and economic hegemony depends on it.

I am in favor of abandoning such a grand strategic concept because military and economic hegemony is unsustainable.

The question becomes what do we replace it with and how do we transition?

It’s interesting to see so many people who seemed so in favor of making sure we always spent far more on our military than anyone else in the world advocate for a new world where there will be multiple centers of military and economic power, which will require deft diplomacy to navigate.

That’s why this conversation has the potential to be fascinating.

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Well, at it’s core it’s an alliance to stop communist USSR from expanding into European democracies, right?

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What makes you think that?

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Because Russia could have been integrated with the west…instead we continued making them out as enemy. Well that prophecy has been for filled to delight of Neo-cons and European expansionism.

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We did allow for some integration.

Need I remind you what the Russians did once they had such integrated access?

How would we handle that?

BTW we didn’t make them out to be the enemy.

We held them as a third rate power we didn’t have to take into account.

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You’re more of Barbarian then I am.

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It’s hard to compare. You’ve got the sour, lingering aftermath of Vietnam, which did little for US prestige abroad. Watergate. Violent crime rising precipitously in cities (it finally peaked in the early 90s). Multiple oil shocks and gas rationing here throughout the 1970s (I am old enough to remember odd-even license plate rationing). Lots and lots of terrorism. Stagflation. Iranian hostage crisis.

In 1973, the Arab members of OPEC placed an embargo on the US because of its support of Israel and the Yom Kippur War. It was a real cluster ■■■■■

Lots of declinists back then—as there always are.

Here’s a sample from 1980:

BETWEEN the Tet offensive in Vietnam and the siege of the U.S. embassy in Tehran, America has been in confused retreat. The root causes of our mounting troubles abroad are to be found not in remote Iran or Soviet-occupied Afghanistan, but here at home. The American retreat from world leadership and respect began inside the heads of influential and articulate citizens who drew and taught, especially through the news media, the wrong lessons from the past decade of U.S. defeat.

LINK

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FTFY.

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Oh man, while reading that it was hard to discern between past and present. Very similar, with a Roaring 20’s mixed in. This is gonna be a fun decade. lol

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Thing is Jay…I still don’t trust Europeans. They have long and nasty history on their side.

I can understand when Soviet Union existed. But when the fall of Soviets should have been the end of NATO.

What to do no…well IMO we need to start thinking about post Putin era. But even then we may have even more dangerous leader then him coming to power. And it’s only going to be more likely if Russian people get punished like what we are doing now. We are radicalizing their people to be anti-western.

I don’t have a solution but what I do know that we allowed EU to ■■■■ us, meaning Americans and Russians over for their own power grab.

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So do feel more of an affinity for Russia than you do for the countries of the EU? Not trying to argue, but clarify.

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I’m not looking for a solution today.

But for the concept of an America outside of NATO to work, there have to be other centers of power to take on the burdens America would be leaving behind.

The idea of an America that still maintains its dominance in such a world is untenable…you do realize that, don’t you?

It seems to me people have this notion that America will still be top dog in such a world.

That isn’t going to happen…and it’s is actually not necessarily a bad thing.

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Are you guys concerned about Chinese hegemony or not.

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Personally, I want a different nominee for 2024.
Nah. Trump was never going to leave NATO. He strengthened NATO, as the head of NATO himself said.
Don’t pass on Dem propaganda and then say you don’t want to discuss reality.
Or do, but don’t expect anyone to care.

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Because you don’t attack friendly states that you have trade.

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World War I ring a bell?

This is absolutely not held up by history.

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Baltic states would likely be where Ukraine is now, except it would have taken less time by Russia. Russian nationalist last invaded Lithuania in 1991. Putin is a Russian nationalist.

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Jay…are you telling me with straight face that we didn’t make them out to be the enemy?

What was the reason for NATO expansion then if they didn’t view Russia out as the enemy?

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China is such a good friend to the west.