SCOTUS rules against NCAA in favor of student athletes

Ben_Natuf · 2021-06-22T10:08:15.787Z

i happen to live in nc, charlotte, where independence hs produces lots of full ride college athlete football players (joined by butler hs in the last decade). a few have gone on to nfl careers. there is lots of competition and shenanigans going on to get young players into those schools. tell me how its not.

STODR · 2021-06-22T10:30:47.801Z

Ben_Natuf:

i happen to live in nc, charlotte, where independence hs produces lots of full ride college athlete football players (joined by butler hs in the last decade). a few have gone on to nfl careers. there is lots of competition and shenanigans going on to get young players into those schools. tell me how its not.

What product or service are they providing? Who are they selling the product or service too? A few schools competing to one up each other is not a business. Now I answered your question answer mine. Why do you think it is a business?

Ben_Natuf · 2021-06-22T10:32:26.879Z

further food for thought.

will football players for ohio state get paid more than those for toledo? will they negotiate a minimum salary? if so, how will the schools that don’t make money off athletics (which is the vast majority) be able to pay their athletes? will they have a stipend that all college athletes get equally? how does that not violate the same anti trust laws this is based on?

Ben_Natuf · 2021-06-22T10:34:54.582Z

why is it a business in college. the vast majority of colleges do not make money from their sports program. some do. thats my point, its a sport, not a business. if you treat it like a business then all labor laws apply.

STODR · 2021-06-22T11:30:01.113Z

Ben_Natuf:

further food for thought.

will football players for ohio state get paid more than those for toledo? will they negotiate a minimum salary? if so, how will the schools that don’t make money off athletics (which is the vast majority) be able to pay their athletes? will they have a stipend that all college athletes get equally? how does that not violate the same anti trust laws this is based on?

Those are all good questions and I believe will be a huge elephant in the room.

STODR · 2021-06-22T11:36:08.177Z

Ben_Natuf:

why is it a business in college. the vast majority of colleges do not make money from their sports program. some do. thats my point, its a sport, not a business. if you treat it like a business then all labor laws apply.

Colleges can actively recruit and promote their athletes for gain. Highs schools can’t legally at least everywhere I have lived, but I don’t know about NC. That is the difference. Yes I agree that if you treat it like a business then labor laws should apply. Where we disagree is you saying HS sports are a business.

Ben_Natuf · 2021-06-22T11:58:15.054Z

in the end this decision was not in favor of “student athletes” but in favor of only “elite student athletes”. The bulk of them will pay the price with the loss of sports programs entirely.

tnt · 2021-06-22T12:52:20.063Z

SixFoot:

It could also be a requirement that all student athletes attend full-time. The sky is the limit now. There’s deals to be struck!

I think that’s true already. I believe there is a cap tot he number of years you can play NCAA sports - 4. But I’m not totally sure.

tnt · 2021-06-22T12:53:19.073Z

Eagle-Keeper:

Maybe we will see colleges cutting out sports that don’t generate enough revenue to support their existence.

This already happens.

Eagle-Keeper · 2021-06-22T14:47:47.957Z

WuWei:

DisturbedGuy:

I’m not talking about big money. Maybe $500 a month to live on since they can’t have a job.

Should a player at 'Bama get the same as one from Cowlick U?

Compensation should be based on how much revenue they generate. Free market capitalism!

Supreme_War_Pig · 2021-06-22T14:50:07.792Z

Ben_Natuf:

so, a different union for each sport, a unions job is not to educate its members, its to get them the most money it can. so I imagine football and basketball players will be well compensated. will athletes in sports that actually cost money have to pay for the privelege of playing?

I don’t know, it’s going to take years for this to shake out.

Eagle-Keeper · 2021-06-22T14:56:01.687Z

[quote=“STODR, post:53, topic:239422, full:true”]

Eagle-Keeper:

STODR:

floydefisher:

You can’t. It’s federal law pal. I think it falls under ‘Title IX’ IIRC.
[/quote]

Not quite true. Title IX prevents them from cutting a disproportionate of Female sports. Revenue has no bearing.

Are you saying all (I’m assuming just) public colleges have carry a certain number of sports even if their revenue can’t justify it?

Actually Floyd fisher said it better. They have to have equal equal number of athletes. Even if that meant cutting a team that made money to add a team that did not.

As I noted before I’m no fan of the marriage between so-called higher education and sports. As far as I know no other country does this like the US. If a sport cannot be supported by free market capitalism then the consumers are saying they don’t really give two ■■■■■ about that sport. Then what government is saying is that tuition should be raised to support a product few people want. That makes no ■■■■■■■ economic sense. Title IX is the perfect example of the idiocy of government at work.

Eagle-Keeper · 2021-06-22T15:03:27.357Z

GrandWazoo:

Eagle-Keeper:

Here’s a question. How many of the athletes who don’t make it in professional sports are getting good paying jobs with their degrees?

Alan Page was a member of the Minnesota Vikings Purple People Eaters in th e 50’s & 70\s. While he was in the NFL he got his J.D… He went on to be the first black Associate Justice on the Minnesota Supreme Court. He spent his free time and retirement going to high schools and colleges to tell students to stay in school and get their degree because there was no guarantee that they would become a pro and how long their sports career would last. He was asked once if he though he had made a impact. And he said that he had received hundreds of letters from athletes thanking him for his wise words.

One anecdotal account doesn’t make a trend. This is from the link I posted after I had a chance to to some looking into this myself:

"The result is a focus on eligibility rather than education. That isn’t to say schools are committing academic fraud to keep athletes eligible, just that they put them in easy majors — and things that really aren’t even majors, like general studies. These majors allow players to get easy degrees that give them little chance of finding a job consistent with their peers, many of whom had more time and academic prowess to spend on more challenging majors or will go to graduate school.

Not only has the NCAA done a good job of framing a “success” as receiving a degree rather than receiving the education necessary to get a job, it has also created its own graduation rate to paint a better picture than the federal graduation rates. While the NCAA claims athletes graduate at a higher rate than the general student body, the federal rates show the opposite.

> Throughout Division I’s Football Bowl Series programs, the 2013 football report found (findings are published quarterly by sport), athletes who entered college in 2005 graduated at rates 18 percentage points lower than non-athletes, and black players lagged by 24 percentage points."

As a former educator I know these kids. Let’s just say that they are not taking AP classes. Also the better athlete they are the less they generally care about academics because they are hoping to make it to the pro’s.

EternalVigilance · 2021-06-22T22:06:35.979Z

This is an older article, pre-pandemic, but it still applies. Most athletic departments are in the red and accounting is a shell game. Only a few will actually be able to survive this “pay for play” era, so college athletics will absolutely be diminished. I might agree with the Court’s decision, but anybody who thinks this will result in better outcomes for players is delusional. The NCAA never should have let this issue get to this point and only has itself to blame.

al – 21 Aug 14

NCAA study finds all but 20 FBS schools lose money on athletics

Study also finds that athletic revenues fail to meet expenses at every Division II and Division III school.

Liberty323 · 2021-06-22T22:35:00.794Z

Eagle-Keeper:

Personally was glad to see this decision, which was 9-0! So much of so-called higher education is nothing but a money making scam with the athletics portion being a big part of that.

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/06/21/supreme-court-ncaa-antitrust-ruling-495319

I hope these athletes can actually get a share of the revenue they generate. I would also assume it only applies to sports that actually generate money, which would limit this to football and basketball players.

Feminists will have a field day if that’s the case. They will argue that the captain of the field hockey team should make as much as the quarterback.

Liberty323 · 2021-06-22T22:40:27.502Z

PurpnGold:

“Nowhere else in America can businesses get away with agreeing not to pay their workers a fair market rate on the theory that their product is defined by not paying their workers a fair market rate. And under ordinary principles of antitrust law, it is not evident why college sports should be any different. The NCAA is not above the law,” Kavanaugh wrote.“

My goodness I agree with him!

NCAA should pay its athletes, I don’t understand how anyone is against it.

I think they should get rid of “one-and-done” rule and just let kids go straight to the NBA out of high school if they choose. If they choose to go the college route, make them stay 3 years, like NCAA baseball. Then compensate them. Seems fair to me.

PurpnGold · 2021-06-22T22:42:16.774Z

I’m not against this.

Liberty323 · 2021-06-22T22:43:52.111Z

floydefisher:

Ok, now how do you do it without decimating college athletics at large?

How much revenue does a school like Akron generate from it’s athletics programs vs Ohio State?

And how can Akron be expected to compete with Ohio State on any level? Or how does South Florida compete with Florida, Miami, or Florida State?

And what happens to Ohio State once people figure out it’s nothing more than glorified minor league athletics? Have you see what is happening lately with minor league baseball, and how it’s dying?

Do you see what kind of can of worms this opens?

It’s all relative. A 2-star player being recruited by Akron already knows he can’t command as much as a 5-star who goes to OSU. If they want more compensation, push more weight and work on that 40 time.

Supreme_War_Pig · 2021-06-22T23:50:53.659Z

Liberty323:

PurpnGold:

“Nowhere else in America can businesses get away with agreeing not to pay their workers a fair market rate on the theory that their product is defined by not paying their workers a fair market rate. And under ordinary principles of antitrust law, it is not evident why college sports should be any different. The NCAA is not above the law,” Kavanaugh wrote.“

My goodness I agree with him!

NCAA should pay its athletes, I don’t understand how anyone is against it.

I think they should get rid of “one-and-done” rule and just let kids go straight to the NBA out of high school if they choose. If they choose to go the college route, make them stay 3 years, like NCAA baseball. Then compensate them. Seems fair to me.

I bet this happens soon

Snowfinch · 2021-06-23T22:00:09.612Z

Things are moving fast. NCAA already giving in and drafting policy to let players market themselves for $$$ without losing eligibility. Small market teams are going to have recruiting problems.

NCAA Drafting Player Pay Policy