Rand Paul Trump NATO Montenegro

zantax · 2018-07-24T15:58:53.264Z

MoleUK:

zantax:

Simple question, are you willing to die to defend Montenegro? I’m not.

How about France? Denmark? Latvia?

Why not go down the list of countries that you are treaty-bound to defend but do not wish to.

At this point, I would argue there is no reason the EU can’t defend themselves. Its not 1950 any more.

MoleUK · 2018-07-24T15:59:29.297Z

zantax:

At this point, I would argue there is no reason the EU can’t defend themselves. Its not 1950 any more.

Ok. No more NATO.

I don’t think you know what that would mean for the US, but OK.

And honestly, I think Trump has caused the EU and others to take stock of things. US hegemony only works when there isn’t a nutter in charge.

And Trump is only a symptom, you could easily elect another. The US is no longer a reliable ally.

TheRedComet · 2018-07-24T16:01:16.204Z

Part of the reason for NATO is keep individual European militaries fairly small relative to ours.

There’s a reason for that. Europe tore itself apart twice in 20 years and we got drug into it. The unstated goal of NATO is to keep Europeans from having the capabilities to go to war with each other so that 1914 and 1939 never repeat.

MoleUK · 2018-07-24T16:04:17.566Z

TheRedComet:

Part of the reason for NATO is keep individual European militaries fairly small relative to ours.

There’s a reason for that. Europe tore itself apart twice in 20 years and we got drug into it. The unstated goal of NATO is to keep Europeans from having the capabilities to go to war with each other so that 1914 and 1939 never repeat.

Mmmm, I’d say the goal of the EU is to stop Europe from ripping itself apart, notsomuch NATO. But both play their part.

And members of the EU have voiced support for an EU-wide military. The UK was one of the few members vetoing that idea, since we’re out it’s a lot more likely to happen imo.

Jezcoe · 2018-07-24T16:05:24.349Z

zantax:

Oryx:

zantax:

So I should be willing to send others off to die for something I wouldn’t be willing to die for

When I said this same thing in 2003 I was told by some people that I was being unpatriotic. That the US had international responsibilities, and freedom!, etc.

Well there are strategic and economic interests of the US that are worth fighting for, I just don’t see what they are in regard to Montenegro.

Geography.

Oryx · 2018-07-24T16:06:40.622Z

zantax:

Well there are strategic and economic interests of the US that are worth fighting for, I just don’t see what they are in regard to Montenegro.

“Well there are strategic and economic interests of the US that are worth fighting for, I just don’t see what they are in regard to Iraq,” is pretty much what I said in 2003.

TheRedComet · 2018-07-24T16:09:52.654Z

We would lose a crap ton if NATO disbanded. As an american I like the idea of having British Royal Marines, French Infantry, and German Special Forces integrated under our command of ■■■■ ever hits the fan.

Not including the Royal Navy which integrates nicely with our carrier battle groups.

Jezcoe · 2018-07-24T16:10:01.155Z

And remember… we aren’t going to war because of Montenegro.

That possibility isn’t really even on the table.

The point is that the country is in our sphere of influence.

tnt · 2018-07-24T16:10:35.080Z

it’s pretty funny how your foreign policy lines up perfectly with the President you often pretend not to like.

Jezcoe · 2018-07-24T16:10:47.687Z

TheRedComet:

We would lose a crap ton if NATO disbanded. As an american I like the idea of having British Royal Marines, French Infantry, and German Special Forces integrated under our command of ■■■■ ever hits the fan.

Not including the Royal Navy which integrates nicely with our carrier battle groups.

Yeah… it’s like some want to have a global hegemony but not have to actually pay for it or something.

MoleUK · 2018-07-24T16:12:24.159Z

TheRedComet:

We would lose a crap ton if NATO disbanded. As an american I like the idea of having British Royal Marines, French Infantry, and German Special Forces integrated under our command of ■■■■ ever hits the fan.

Not including the Royal Navy which integrates nicely with our carrier battle groups.

It wouldn’t disband, it would essentially reform without the US.

You’d be iced out, and it would cost both sides.

Drs · 2018-07-24T16:13:50.774Z

Seems like Republicans want to take America back to a pre WWII standing in the world.

zantax · 2018-07-24T16:14:05.032Z

Oryx:

zantax:

Well there are strategic and economic interests of the US that are worth fighting for, I just don’t see what they are in regard to Montenegro.

“Well there are strategic and economic interests of the US that are worth fighting for, I just don’t see what they are in regard to Iraq,” is pretty much what I said in 2003.

Well we disagree on that. And I am pretty sure I can make a better case they existed for Iraq than you can that they do for Montenegro.

MoleUK · 2018-07-24T16:16:21.031Z

Drs:

Seems like Republicans want to take America back to a pre WWII standing in the world.

Rand Paul has been leading the “non-interventionist” charge for a while, but it’s looking an awful lot more like isolationism these days.

And yeah it seems to have taken a hold of the Republican electorate, in one form or another.

Drs · 2018-07-24T16:21:27.303Z

Yep as Russia and China extend influence America will basically be told to shut up and sit down.

They are already doing with Iran.

Candyman · 2018-07-24T16:25:35.041Z

I figured Rand Paul for the last person to become a Trumpist but it sounds like he’s slowly being assimilated. Oh well. Guess he liked the talk but had no walk.

Oryx · 2018-07-24T16:26:11.658Z

zantax:

Well we disagree on that. And I am pretty sure I can make a better case they existed for Iraq than you can that they do for Montenegro.

Iraq turned into a huge money-sucking pit, as I’m sure any conflict in Montenegro would. Strategically I’m not sure what we gained from Iraq, or what we gain from Montenegro in the EU.

zantax · 2018-07-24T16:38:10.727Z

tnt:

it’s pretty funny how your foreign policy lines up perfectly with the President you often pretend not to like.

My dislike of Trump, is not, for the most part, policy based, it is character based, what he says and how he says it.

TommyLucchese · 2018-07-24T19:23:18.450Z

MoleUK:

It wouldn’t disband, it would essentially reform without the US.

You’d be iced out, and it would cost both sides.

Problem is-for us anyhow-a federated EU without the power we have basically running NATO could displace us as the world’s hyperpower.

Jezcoe · 2018-07-24T19:26:40.507Z

TommyLucchese:

MoleUK:

It wouldn’t disband, it would essentially reform without the US.

You’d be iced out, and it would cost both sides.

Problem is-for us anyhow-a federated EU without the power we have basically running NATO could displace us as the world’s hyperpower.

Yep… the US can say bye bye to projecting world wide power