Queen Elizabeth II Has Died

[Samm]

@FloridaYankee

Benevolent. That’s rich.

And it’s a crock of bs.

Do you not understand the relevance of the time? Compared to many colonial countries, arguably most, the British were benevolent occupiers. And that relative benevolence is born out to this day. Almost to a country, former British countries still revere their association with the British Empire, some to the extent that they still consider British Royalty as their Sovereign.

[Camp]

I saw a report that FOX news is changing its name to BBC WEST due to its sparkling 24/7 Royals coverage.

Paul Ryan is a marketing genius.

[Samm]

@Happyhappyjoyjoy

I think youre being a little generous.

The british empire did considerable harm on a vast scale.

We Brits like to think the second world war redeemed the sins of the empire but we were still committing horrors in the 1950’s.

Other colonial powers may have done worse on a local scale but on aggregate, I doubt any did as much in totality.

Blaming the Queen for this, as many are currently doing, is to miss the point entirely, of course.

I’m not being generous, I’m being factual. The present day socio-economic and political standing of former British Colonies as opposed to that of most other European Imperialists speaks for itself.

[FloridaYankee]

@Samm

@FloridaYankee

Benevolent. That’s rich.

And it’s a crock of bs.

Do you not understand the relevance of the time? Compared to many colonial countries, arguably most, the British were benevolent occupiers. And that relative benevolence is born out to this day. Almost to a country, former British countries still revere their association with the British Empire, some to the extent that they still consider British Royalty as their Sovereign.

Do the quarter million Kenyans stuffed into concentration camps and tortured revere them?

Do the million plus Igbo Nigerians who were killed and starved to death?

The five million in India that starved to death while hundreds of thousands of tons of Indian grain were exported?

Virtually ANYBODY that ever worked on a sugar plantation must revere the hell out of them eh?

Ten thousand or more British ships loaded with slaves sailed to the new world.

I am not interested in comparing them to other countries in the context of British history. They brutalized millions, that’s a fact. They ended slavery sooner than most, also a fact. There are many sides to the story. This whitewashing of their legacy is dishonest however. I’m not playing that game.

[GWH]

[Guvnah]

@Samm

I’m not being generous, I’m being factual.

You’re banging your head against the contemporary tactic of judging past realities through modern-day social-justice lenses.

[Samm]

@FloridaYankee

@Samm

@FloridaYankee

Benevolent. That’s rich.

And it’s a crock of bs.

Do you not understand the relevance of the time? Compared to many colonial countries, arguably most, the British were benevolent occupiers. And that relative benevolence is born out to this day. Almost to a country, former British countries still revere their association with the British Empire, some to the extent that they still consider British Royalty as their Sovereign.

Do the quarter million Kenyans stuffed into concentration camps and tortured revere them?

Do the million plus Igbo Nigerians who were killed and starved to death?

The five million in India that starved to death while hundreds of thousands of tons of Indian grain were exported?

Virtually ANYBODY that ever worked on a sugar plantation must revere the hell out of them eh?

Ten thousand or more British ships loaded with slaves sailed to the new world.

I am not interested in comparing them to other countries in the context of British history. They brutalized millions, that’s a fact. They ended slavery sooner than most, also a fact. There are many sides to the story. This whitewashing of their legacy is dishonest however. I’m not playing that game.

Humans are inherently brutal to those whom they subjugate including those who in turn were brutal to others before they were subdued. That you are incapable of distinguishing between degrees of brutality makes this conversation pointless, particularly since it has nothing to do with the thread topic. As I said, I’ll let history do the talking about British Colonialism.

[FloridaYankee]

Ridiculous, of course I can see the different degrees. All I said was that it was a black mark on the legacy of the crown and I intended to leave it at that.

[Samm]

I see the problem. Your threshold for black marks is very low. I suspect every moment of European Colonization of the Americas and the creation and expansion of the United States is an uninterrupted series of black marks. What is your assessment of the Mayan, Aztec, and Incan Empires? Are they spotless?

[FloridaYankee]

@Samm

I see the problem. Your threshold for black marks is very low. I suspect every moment of European Colonization of the Americas and the creation and expansion of the United States is an uninterrupted series of black marks. What is your assessment of the Mayan, Aztec, and Incan Empires? Are they spotless?

Willfully and knowingly starving five million people to death is not a low threshold for a back mark on legacy.

[TheRedComet]

I get where you’re going and I agree. The British Empire committed a ton of crimes.

With that said, Samm’s original point primarily dealt with the state they left their colonies in and the success of those colonies when they declared independence compared to the other European Imperial powers. In that regard he is correct; ex-British colonies have generally performed much better Post liberation than their French, German, Portuguese, Spanish, or Belgian neighbors.

One of them (the United States) is the most powerful country in the word and another one (the Republic of India) is the fastest growing economy in the world and will be a superpower in the next 15 years. Their former African colonies are much more stable and more economically prosperous (such as Nigeria, Kenya, and South Africa) than their fellow African nations who were run by the French, Belgians, or Portuguese. In the Caribbean Jamaica is far ahead of Haiti in every measurement. We can go on.

As for the reason, that’s very complicated. But I personally think it has to do with how the British administered their colonies versus the other European powers. Yes they exploited them. Horribly so. But they managed their colonies in a fundamentally different way than the other European powers did. When decolonization happened, former British colonies were able to get off of the ground pretty quickly for the most part. That wasn’t the case for Spanish, French, or god forbid Belgian former colonies, most of whom are in much worse shape and are barely functional with a few exceptions.

Basically, the British left behind economic and political structures that the newly independent people could use to surge forward. The French were too busy trying to force their colonial subjects to become French. The Belgians destroyed everything of use when they left out of spite. The Portuguese never even tried to develop their African colonies.

I get your point and I agree we should not minimize the exploitation and crimes the British committed in their empire over the course of three centuries. But we also have to take in that the British, when they left or were forced out, left their colonies in a position to where they could succeed on their own. Something the other imperial powers didn’t do.

[Samm]

@FloridaYankee

@Samm

I see the problem. Your threshold for black marks is very low. I suspect every moment of European Colonization of the Americas and the creation and expansion of the United States is an uninterrupted series of black marks. What is your assessment of the Mayan, Aztec, and Incan Empires? Are they spotless?

Willfully and knowingly starving five million people to death is not a low threshold for a back mark on legacy.

Your holier than thouness is noted.

[Samm]

@TheRedComet

I get where you’re going and I agree. The British Empire committed a ton of crimes.

With that said, Samm’s original point primarily dealt with the state they left their colonies in and the success of those colonies when they declared independence compared to the other European Imperial powers. In that regard he is correct; ex-British colonies have generally performed much better Post liberation than their French, German, Portuguese, Spanish, or Belgian neighbors.

One of them (the United States) is the most powerful country in the word and another one (the Republic of India) is the fastest growing economy in the world and will be a superpower in the next 15 years. Their former African colonies are much more stable and more economically prosperous (such as Nigeria, Kenya, and South Africa) than their fellow African nations who were run by the French, Belgians, or Portuguese. In the Caribbean Jamaica is far ahead of Haiti in every measurement. We can go on.

As for the reason, that’s very complicated. But I personally think it has to do with how the British administered their colonies versus the other European powers. Yes they exploited them. Horribly so. But they managed their colonies in a fundamentally different way than the other European powers did. When decolonization happened, former British colonies were able to get off of the ground pretty quickly for the most part. That wasn’t the case for Spanish, French, or god forbid Belgian former colonies, most of whom are in much worse shape and are barely functional with a few exceptions.

Basically, the British left behind economic and political structures that the newly independent people could use to surge forward. The French were too busy trying to force their colonial subjects to become French. The Belgians destroyed everything of use when they left out of spite. The Portuguese never even tried to develop their African colonies.

I get your point and I agree we should not minimize the exploitation and crimes the British committed in their empire over the course of three centuries. But we also have to take in that the British, when they left or were forced out, left their colonies in a position to where they could succeed on their own. Something the other imperial powers didn’t do.

Not to mention that most former British Colonies not only benefited socially, politically and infrastructure wise, from the administrative structure left behind, but they are also proud of their British heritage and retain much of it to the present day with many even going so far as to continue to recognize the Crown as their Sovereign.

[Nemesis]

People are queuing for 6-7 hours to see the Queen lying in state.

By all accounts its really well organized with people able to leave the queue to get something to eat, use the toilet etc and not lose their place.

I think if I was back home I might be tempted to go just to experience it.