Of rights and reparations

WuWei · 2019-07-09T11:37:11.942Z

CanadianJudo:

Reparation are not about morality

reparation are about the government abusing a set of people.

Which is morality.

TheRedComet · 2019-07-09T11:37:27.682Z

Yepp.

They created a bunch of justifications for it. But they knew the truth.

WuWei · 2019-07-09T11:37:31.690Z

Optrader:

Allah is not god

Careful.

WuWei · 2019-07-09T11:38:34.586Z

Drs:

There are no rights in the bible.

Might want to do a little reading.

WuWei · 2019-07-09T11:39:20.389Z

Optrader:

If rights come from man, they are distributed, denied, changed or taken away by those in power. If that is the reality of society, who are you to retroactively judge that previous society?

Nice.

WuWei · 2019-07-09T11:40:19.270Z

CanadianJudo:

because admitting your wrongs is part of the process of advancing forward.

society can’t move forward if we don’t admit our pasted mistakes.

You didn’t answer his question.

And that’s wrong anyway.

WuWei · 2019-07-09T11:40:49.626Z

TheDoctorIsIn:

I have.

I considered it, and then I realized that ridiculous broad-brushing and assignment of “bad” motives to the other side is usually a sign to ignore that argument entirely.

And yet…

WuWei · 2019-07-09T11:43:03.312Z

TheDoctorIsIn:

Optrader:

If rights come from man, they are distributed, denied, changed or taken away by those in power. If that is the reality of society, who are you to retroactively judge that previous society?

If rights come from God, they are still disturbed, denied, changed and taken away by those in power, all over the world.

If rights come from God, how come North Koreans don’t have them? Does God hate them?

Bad argument. Read the scripture. The Good Lord never promised anyone Utopia on this earth.

WuWei · 2019-07-09T11:44:05.312Z

TheDoctorIsIn:

Optrader:

If that is the reality of society, who are you to retroactively judge that previous society?

I am a human.

I have free will. I am able to question and judge whatever I want.

For yourself. Not for me.

WuWei · 2019-07-09T11:45:46.308Z

CanadianJudo:

I would lump the two together we are free from our instinct we can think outside of them.

as your cat is forced only on its basic needs.

self-reflection is a powerful tool.

What? You think you are “free from instinct”? That’s amazing.

WuWei · 2019-07-09T11:48:23.969Z

TheRedComet:

Yepp.

They created a bunch of justifications for it. But they knew the truth.

Excuses. Motivated reasoning. Conformation bias.

WuWei · 2019-07-09T11:52:42.531Z

Great thread. Excellent posts. Reminds me of the old days.

Everyone in the thread gets a hug.

Jezcoe · 2019-07-09T11:55:41.071Z

Optrader:

So, I hear repeatedly from liberals that rights do not come from God. In fact, most Liberals don’t even believe in God. Rights then, must come from man, and what man can grant, man can take away or not bestow at all. Society is ruled by might makes right, with each generation deciding what they will grant, take away or deny.

Since this is true, on what basis can African Americans ever be granted restitution for past enslavement or for not having rights that never existed in the first place?

The first fallacy is that most “liberals” do not believe in God. So just stop that right there.

As to the central question as to where our “rights” come from.

Our system of Liberal Democracy is a version of self rule that is modeled on a idealized version of the Roman Republic as seen through the lens of Enlightenment philosophy. So when rights come from their “Creator” that is God, or Nature’s God, or just Nature depending on how radical the figure of the Revolutionary period may have been.

So the disconnect happens when modern religiousity sees the Founding Principles which were a reflection of Enlightenment ideals which not to many years before had codified into political philosophy the meaning of the “consent of the Governed” as opposed to the older idea of the “Divine Right of Kings” as not a debate of philosophical principles but a bunch of guys in lockstep agreement.

Both of those concepts can be seen as coming from “God” and both are equally defended by various forms of Christian philosophy.

The thing is that the “consent of the governed” ideology works much better under a secular form of Government because of the very nature of who the “governed” are. Therefore there is no conflict between advocating for a secular form of Government and declaring that the rights are endowed by one’s “Creator”… whoever that creator may be.

AS for the basis of chattel slavery and fitting that into the Enlightenment philosophy of individual rights, consent of the governed and the free pursuit of life, liberty and happiness is that you can’t.

It is impossible.

In that instance the broader philosophy is abandoned for political and economic expediency.

Thus is the contradictory nature of the human condition.

mobulis · 2019-07-09T12:00:44.716Z

WuWei:

Excast:

Optrader:

Where do rights, assuming we have them, come from then?

Rights are basically a societal contract to prevent utter chaos.

Rubbish. Rights cause utter chaos.

So what’s the solution?

WuWei · 2019-07-09T12:38:39.168Z

Jezcoe:

The thing is that the “consent of the governed” ideology works much better under a secular form of Government because of the very nature of who the “governed” are.

Good post.

What is their very nature?

WuWei · 2019-07-09T12:39:41.122Z

mobulis:

WuWei:

Excast:

Optrader:

Where do rights, assuming we have them, come from then?

Rights are basically a societal contract to prevent utter chaos.

Rubbish. Rights cause utter chaos.

So what’s the solution?

Embrace the chaos.

mobulis · 2019-07-09T13:21:54.188Z

WuWei:

mobulis:

WuWei:

Excast:

Optrader:

Where do rights, assuming we have them, come from then?

Rights are basically a societal contract to prevent utter chaos.

Rubbish. Rights cause utter chaos.

So what’s the solution?

Embrace the chaos.

So goodbye 2nd amendment, right?

Optrader · 2019-07-09T13:46:42.671Z

TheDoctorIsIn:

Optrader:

If that is the reality of society, who are you to retroactively judge that previous society?

I am a human.

I have free will. I am able to question and judge whatever I want.

We all do. I guess a better question would be: Why do you feel your judgement should prevail over the judgement made by the people who actually lived in the era of slavery?

Optrader · 2019-07-09T13:51:05.887Z

SimplyTrying:

Optrader:

So, I hear repeatedly from liberals that rights do not come from God. In fact, most Liberals don’t even believe in God. Rights then, must come from man, and what man can grant, man can take away or not bestow at all. Society is ruled by might makes right, with each generation deciding what they will grant, take away or deny.

Since this is true, on what basis can African Americans ever be granted restitution for past enslavement or for not having rights that never existed in the first place?

No, it’s not a fact that most Liberals don’t believe in God. Please stop making things up.

God was removed from the Democrat platform in 2012. He was loudly Booed by the Liberals there. True, not every single liberal is an atheist. Of course scripture says “Devils believe, and tremble.” I don’t sense that liberals tremble much at the thought of falling into the hands of an angry God… just my observation.

Optrader · 2019-07-09T13:54:02.214Z

mobulis:

Optrader:

Drs:

There are no rights in the bible.

There are many promises directly stated and rights implied. That man is made in God’s image, that he formed us in the belly and knew us before we were born, and his command thou shalt not kill implies a right to life.

This is why the founding fathers called certain right inalienable and that we are endowed with them by our creator.

Nope that’s just your interpretation.

Nope, the founding fathers explicitly credited our rights as coming from God, and the fact that King George III was denying them was their justification for rebelling.