Not our war, it's Europe

conan · 2022-03-17T18:31:31.919Z

Orygun:

Actually what this is showing is that the whole “Fortress America” movement heralded by Trump, Tucker and others is effectively over. The GOP in congress are trying to out-hawk Biden in their desire to support Ukraine.

Yes I’m aware…I think I started a thread stated Neo-cons are back in driver seat.

conan · 2022-03-17T18:40:23.405Z

JayJay:

I don’t believe in Fortress America. America First leads to America Alone and that is a raw deal.

You’re still making the same mistake you accused Orygon. still equating fortress America with America first. We have interest with have shared other countries. Interest that benefits us and them that have that shared interest.

Europe on other hand is leaching off of us…and now has gotten us in a conflict with Russia that we should have been trading openly with. Yes…we have shared common interest with Russia too. But we sold out to Europeans.

conan · 2022-03-17T18:42:24.280Z

You can’t even begin to have a discussion with those types. Concept is just out of their reach.

CanadianJudo · 2022-03-17T18:56:44.116Z

America is not going to risk nuclear war over Ukraine.

WuWei · 2022-03-17T18:58:07.016Z

Jezcoe:

Paul_Thomson:

WuWei:

Ukraine is neither NATO nor an ally.

Ukraine was being encouraged by NATO to apply to join NATO. Hopefully, the Ukranians have learned that NATO are fair-weather friends only and are not to be trusted…

If Ukraine was in NATO then they would have not been invaded.

Probably not. And they would have felt free to do even worse than they did.

Orygun · 2022-03-17T18:58:10.615Z

CanadianJudo:

America is not going to risk nuclear war over Ukraine.

Yeah but what do you do if Putin starts with chemical weapons, lobbing a few missiles into NATO territory or God forbid shoots a tactical nuke at a Ukrainian city?

WuWei · 2022-03-17T18:58:59.129Z

The EU first, shortly after the military wing.

CanadianJudo · 2022-03-17T18:59:39.882Z

Orygun:

CanadianJudo:

America is not going to risk nuclear war over Ukraine.

Yeah but what do you do if Putin starts with chemical weapons, lobbing a few missiles into NATO territory or God forbid shoots a tactical nuke at a Ukrainian city?

America will have no choice if Russia attack Poland or another NATO state.
but America will not risk nuclear war with Russia over Ukraine no matter how horrible it becomes.

attacking Syria and Libya and not comparable because they are no threat to America.
Russia is a threat and America will not risk that threat over people they are not obligated to defend.

WuWei · 2022-03-17T19:01:41.821Z

conan:

You can’t even begin to have a discussion with those types. Concept is just out of their reach.

I like @margaretms2

WuWei · 2022-03-17T19:02:28.327Z

CanadianJudo:

America will have no choice if

And America should always have a choice…

JayJay · 2022-03-17T19:03:01.130Z

CanadianJudo:

America is not going to risk nuclear war over Ukraine.

The choice is potentially not going to be theirs to make.

CanadianJudo · 2022-03-17T19:03:25.208Z

JayJay:

CanadianJudo:

America is not going to risk nuclear war over Ukraine.

The choice is likely not going to be theirs to make.

NATO is a defence agreement.
if EU attack Russia America is not obligated to help.

JayJay · 2022-03-17T19:03:44.057Z

conan:

JayJay:

I don’t believe in Fortress America. America First leads to America Alone and that is a raw deal.

You’re still making the same mistake you accused Orygon. still equating fortress America with America first. We have interest with have shared other countries. Interest that benefits us and them that have that shared interest.

Europe on other hand is leaching off of us…and now has gotten us in a conflict with Russia that we should have been trading openly with. Yes…we have shared common interest with Russia too. But we sold out to Europeans.

I’m making no such mistake.

Supreme_War_Pig · 2022-03-17T20:28:51.648Z

Orygun:

Supreme_War_Pig:

Hoo boy.

Not saying its without serious issues of its own…but a strong EU/US/Canada and a strong NATO acting as a bulwark to fend off Russia is likely here to stay. I would say this dovetails into a united Western presence against Chinese expansionism as well. Is it dangerous as hell in some ways? Yes. But Putin just changed the chessboard.

I’m good with it, but there are some folk around here to whom the word "globalism is a challenge to a fight.

Supreme_War_Pig · 2022-03-17T20:31:31.995Z

margaretms2:

But what about private entities? A bunch have decided to stay in Russia (Koch, Halliburton, etc.). Do we always leave that decision to the company? (I’m asking sincerely—not in a provocative way.)

Maybe we should write some laws that allow for companies that do this to have their federal tax rebates canceled.

conan · 2022-03-17T22:28:32.442Z

Really…I think Jay is well aware of that.

conan · 2022-03-17T22:29:44.993Z

Sure you are. You think America first is American fortress…which is farthest from the truth.

TheRedComet · 2022-03-17T22:30:15.442Z

image1920×1072 110 KB

The Pro-War American faction’s reaction to the thread title.

Sometimes war is necessary. This conflict is not one of those times. I’m fine with assisting the Ukrainians with small arms and weapons such as Javelins. But that is as far as it needs to go.

The specter of nuclear Armageddon clouds the judgement of men. If we should have it, it will be because we walked blind into it.

margaretms2 · 2022-03-17T22:46:49.194Z

I’m not using “Fortress America” in a pejorative sense; it’s a phrase long associated with “America First.” Here Comes Fortress America? | The National Interest

conan · 2022-03-17T22:54:09.667Z

Fortress America and America first are two different concepts with different meanings.

Just parroting a talking point.