Not our war, it's Europe

Paul_Thomson · 2022-03-17T17:12:29.213Z

WuWei:

Ukraine is neither NATO nor an ally.

Ukraine was being encouraged by NATO to apply to join NATO. Hopefully, the Ukranians have learned that NATO are fair-weather friends only and are not to be trusted…

Paul_Thomson · 2022-03-17T17:17:35.953Z

margaretms2:

Also, who is “we” in that sentence? The government?

The government can choose to not make contracts with businesses remaining connected to Russia … or China… or Iran, I guess.

Jezcoe · 2022-03-17T17:21:18.337Z

Paul_Thomson:

WuWei:

Ukraine is neither NATO nor an ally.

Ukraine was being encouraged by NATO to apply to join NATO. Hopefully, the Ukranians have learned that NATO are fair-weather friends only and are not to be trusted…

If Ukraine was in NATO then they would have not been invaded.

DougBH · 2022-03-17T17:29:09.114Z

The worst way to handle it was to say we will not send in troops if Russia invades now, but if in the future they join NATO, we will. What does that suggest Russia do?

margaretms2 · 2022-03-17T17:32:18.510Z

But what about private entities? A bunch have decided to stay in Russia (Koch, Halliburton, etc.). Do we always leave that decision to the company? (I’m asking sincerely—not in a provocative way.)

Jezcoe · 2022-03-17T17:32:38.318Z

DougBH:

The worst way to handle it was to say we will not send in troops if Russia invades now, but if in the future they join NATO, we will. What does that suggest Russia do?

I doubt that Ukraine will join NATO after this.

The EU… maybe. It is in their interest to do so.

The US was never going to go into direct conflict with Russia Unless Russia attacks NATO first.

conan · 2022-03-17T18:31:31.919Z

Orygun:

Actually what this is showing is that the whole “Fortress America” movement heralded by Trump, Tucker and others is effectively over. The GOP in congress are trying to out-hawk Biden in their desire to support Ukraine.

Yes I’m aware…I think I started a thread stated Neo-cons are back in driver seat.

conan · 2022-03-17T18:40:23.405Z

JayJay:

I don’t believe in Fortress America. America First leads to America Alone and that is a raw deal.

You’re still making the same mistake you accused Orygon. still equating fortress America with America first. We have interest with have shared other countries. Interest that benefits us and them that have that shared interest.

Europe on other hand is leaching off of us…and now has gotten us in a conflict with Russia that we should have been trading openly with. Yes…we have shared common interest with Russia too. But we sold out to Europeans.

conan · 2022-03-17T18:42:24.280Z

You can’t even begin to have a discussion with those types. Concept is just out of their reach.

CanadianJudo · 2022-03-17T18:56:44.116Z

America is not going to risk nuclear war over Ukraine.

WuWei · 2022-03-17T18:58:07.016Z

Jezcoe:

Paul_Thomson:

WuWei:

Ukraine is neither NATO nor an ally.

Ukraine was being encouraged by NATO to apply to join NATO. Hopefully, the Ukranians have learned that NATO are fair-weather friends only and are not to be trusted…

If Ukraine was in NATO then they would have not been invaded.

Probably not. And they would have felt free to do even worse than they did.

Orygun · 2022-03-17T18:58:10.615Z

CanadianJudo:

America is not going to risk nuclear war over Ukraine.

Yeah but what do you do if Putin starts with chemical weapons, lobbing a few missiles into NATO territory or God forbid shoots a tactical nuke at a Ukrainian city?

WuWei · 2022-03-17T18:58:59.129Z

The EU first, shortly after the military wing.

CanadianJudo · 2022-03-17T18:59:39.882Z

Orygun:

CanadianJudo:

America is not going to risk nuclear war over Ukraine.

Yeah but what do you do if Putin starts with chemical weapons, lobbing a few missiles into NATO territory or God forbid shoots a tactical nuke at a Ukrainian city?

America will have no choice if Russia attack Poland or another NATO state.
but America will not risk nuclear war with Russia over Ukraine no matter how horrible it becomes.

attacking Syria and Libya and not comparable because they are no threat to America.
Russia is a threat and America will not risk that threat over people they are not obligated to defend.

WuWei · 2022-03-17T19:01:41.821Z

conan:

You can’t even begin to have a discussion with those types. Concept is just out of their reach.

I like @margaretms2

WuWei · 2022-03-17T19:02:28.327Z

CanadianJudo:

America will have no choice if

And America should always have a choice…

JayJay · 2022-03-17T19:03:01.130Z

CanadianJudo:

America is not going to risk nuclear war over Ukraine.

The choice is potentially not going to be theirs to make.

CanadianJudo · 2022-03-17T19:03:25.208Z

JayJay:

CanadianJudo:

America is not going to risk nuclear war over Ukraine.

The choice is likely not going to be theirs to make.

NATO is a defence agreement.
if EU attack Russia America is not obligated to help.

JayJay · 2022-03-17T19:03:44.057Z

conan:

JayJay:

I don’t believe in Fortress America. America First leads to America Alone and that is a raw deal.

You’re still making the same mistake you accused Orygon. still equating fortress America with America first. We have interest with have shared other countries. Interest that benefits us and them that have that shared interest.

Europe on other hand is leaching off of us…and now has gotten us in a conflict with Russia that we should have been trading openly with. Yes…we have shared common interest with Russia too. But we sold out to Europeans.

I’m making no such mistake.

Supreme_War_Pig · 2022-03-17T20:28:51.648Z

Orygun:

Supreme_War_Pig:

Hoo boy.

Not saying its without serious issues of its own…but a strong EU/US/Canada and a strong NATO acting as a bulwark to fend off Russia is likely here to stay. I would say this dovetails into a united Western presence against Chinese expansionism as well. Is it dangerous as hell in some ways? Yes. But Putin just changed the chessboard.

I’m good with it, but there are some folk around here to whom the word "globalism is a challenge to a fight.