New Lunacy from Virginia

WildRose · 2020-03-01T02:33:21.978Z

WCD9973:

WildRose:

They see who buys every single weapon that goes through an FFL’s hands and they are now doing the 4473’s online

How are they doing it online when it’s against federal law to have a certain digital repository? Those forms are suppose to be only kept via hard records

You could of course have looked before replying but since you didn’t.

RocketFFL – 9 May 17

New 4473 eForm Available from ATF - RocketFFL

The ATF revised the Form 4473 most recently in October 2016, and the new 4473 was required to be used starting on January 16, 2017. 4473 Paper Copies Unfortunately, the ATF shut off their eForm 4473 software because they didn’t update it in time for...

Est. reading time: 5 minutes

You need to download a better set of talking points.

WCD9973 · 2020-03-01T04:16:28.335Z

Um… did You ead your own link? Probably should have.
You still need to download it and store the hard copy.
You can fill it out electronicly but that’s not storing electronicly.
You are arguing that the ATF has access to every gun purchased and by who. But they don’t.
Because it’s illegal for this info to be stored on any digital form despite what you say
It can only be kept hard copy at the store the gun is purchased.

WildRose · 2020-03-01T04:34:21.260Z

No I never said they have access to every gun, just those that pass through the hands of an FFL dealer.

Every gun can be traced through the manufacturer right to the last buyer who got it from an FFL.

Yes, you are still required to print and save a hard copy of the form which doesn’t prevent electronic storage as well.

You’ve been chasing your tail throughout this thread and you really should just quit.

WCD9973 · 2020-03-01T04:41:28.297Z

You have pretty much been proven wrong on every argument you presented and you think Ive bene chasing my tail?

Cool

WildRose · 2020-03-01T04:42:35.486Z

Only in your imagination.

FFL Boss

FFL Boss | Voted #1 FFL Software Bound Book and 4473

FFL Boss is the highest rated FFL Software available. Endorsed by Primary Arms, PSA, AIM Surplus. We offer full automation and ATF compliance

Est. reading time: 18 minutes

WuWei · 2020-03-01T22:36:07.352Z

WCD9973:

You are arguing that the ATF has access to every gun purchased and by who. But they don’t.

Yes they do. On demand from the dealer. You’re wrong.

WuWei · 2020-03-01T22:37:05.222Z

WCD9973:

It can only be kept hard copy at the store the gun is purchased.

Which the jackbooted ATF has access to on demand.

Mountain_Soldier · 2020-09-22T11:16:35.882Z

WCD9973:

and Scalia wrote what was on page 54-56

Starts with “Like most rights, the right secured by the Second
Amendment is not unlimited…”
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf

So just to be clear. You can disagree and think the laws in VA are unconstitutional - But your opinion is just your opinion. The courts have ruled that they are not.
So until that changes - your statement that I support unconstitutional laws, are factually, inaccurate.

How’s this? If you have your firearms taken by the authorities in VA, that’s considered a civil matter. Not criminal. You do not have the right to legal counsel in order to try to get back your firearms. So if you can’t afford an attorney, you will not have one provided for you. It’s up to you to go against the prosecutors and attorneys of the state. It’s only a constitutional right… to keep and bear arms. I know you won’t care but this is an effect of the law.

Mountain_Soldier · 2020-09-22T11:35:17.443Z

WCD9973:

You know, I love debates. But I do expect the person im debating with to at least have some knowladge of the actual debate.
I posted the law, even when and explained all the steps that have to be taken BEFORE a weapon is taken.

It is a higher standard then that restraining order and almost equal to that of arrest warrant (Both of which happen BEFORE a trail).

Im not gonna keep reposting it. If you would like to debate the gaps in that Im all ears.
But simply stating there is no “Due process” when in fact -there are multiple steps of due process BEFORE any action is taken.

Well it’s not playing out that way.

In another case in Frederick County, a man whose guns were seized under a temporary substantial risk order had them returned last week after a judge denied a prosecutor’s attempt to extend the order permanently. The man testified during a Sept. 11 hearing that his son and father, who obtained the order against him, lied to police that he pulled a pistol on his son in their home on Sept. 2, The Winchester Star reported.

“The red flag law is wrong because anybody who is spiteful can have someone’s guns taken from them,” the man told the presiding judge before two semi-automatic rifles, a hunting rifle and three pistols were returned to him, according to the newspaper’s account.

To confiscate the man’s weapons, the law requires authorities prove “by clear and convincing evidence” that he poses a substantial risk of personal injury to himself or other individuals in the near future. The judge found no such grounds, saying that “there are no witnesses that say a gun was pointed at them,” reported the Star, which noted the man’s accusers did not show up in court to testify.

Please note the last sentence. The man’s accusers didn’t even show up to testify to the red flag law being issued and they issued it anyway. That prosecutor or attorney should be fired but he won’t be.

WCD9973 · 2020-09-22T12:04:23.216Z

Sounds like the system worked perfectly.
A judge heard the evidence and decided it didn’t meet the standard and his weapons were returned to him immediately.

Are you saying no one has ever been arrested on false charges that have then been thrown out?? Unfortunately nothing is perfect but as long as it’s quickly fixed, it’s working

Myst really drive you nuts that after all this uproar and protests that Dems still have high approval ratings in the state doesn’t it?
VA is now solidly blue and Dems are fulfilling the promises they made that got them elected.

Mountain_Soldier · 2020-09-22T12:18:12.644Z

What about not getting an attorney when having your constitutional rights taken away?

WCD9973 · 2020-09-22T12:28:38.930Z

I need to look at the case and process. I need a lawyer when a judge sets high bail (against consitution) and need a lawyer when I’m sued for defamation (free speech).
I would say at a min that if you hire a lawyer and win, legal costs should be paid by the state.

Samm · 2020-09-22T20:34:16.325Z

WCD9973:

Sounds like the system worked perfectly.

How is that? Only if you mean the law was used to harass a citizen and cause him much inconvenience and expense did it work perfectly. We, as law abiding citizens, should never be put in such a position without clear evidence and due process.

WCD9973 · 2020-09-22T20:42:55.443Z

The system can not, and does not, gurantee a perfect system. Only a fair system.
No one should be put in that position without clear evidence and due proccess. Agreed. And when it happens, there should be safe guards right away to fix it.
Such as
Bail
Primlary hearings
Grand juries
and Judges.

The man was wrongly accused of something and had his guns taken. A judge quickly restored them. HE should 100% be able to file a complaint against the person who took his guns.

Unfortuatnly -due to qualified immunity - It prob wont matter. But im all for getting rid of qualified immunity. You?

Samm · 2020-09-22T20:48:55.866Z

WCD9973:

The system can not, and does not, gurantee a perfect system. Only a fair system.
No one should be put in that position without clear evidence and due proccess. Agreed. And when it happens, there should be safe guards right away to fix it.
Such as
Bail
Primlary hearings
Grand juries
and Judges.

The man was wrongly accused of something and had his guns taken. A judge quickly restored them. HE should 100% be able to file a complaint against the person who took his guns.

Unfortuatnly -due to qualified immunity - It prob wont matter. But im all for getting rid of qualified immunity. You?

This case demonstrates the fallacy of the system. A man had property confiscated on what was essentially a rumor and had to spend time and money for the property to be returned. Just because he was successful in getting his property back does not mean the system worked. Had it worked, he would have never lost his property in the first place. In general, Red Flag laws are doomed to fail in the context of the 4th and 5th Amendments.

biggestal99 · 2020-09-22T22:13:10.060Z

markdido:

On top of all the anti-gun, anti 2A crap coming out of VA, comes this gem.

States have the right to regulate businesses as they see fit.

Has nothing to do with second amendment rights.

Allan

markdido · 2020-09-22T22:32:33.423Z

biggestal99:

markdido:

On top of all the anti-gun, anti 2A crap coming out of VA, comes this gem.

States have the right to regulate businesses as they see fit.

Has nothing to do with second amendment rights.

Allan

So based on your logic, it would be be cool with you if states banned Planned Parenthood clinics?

WuWei · 2020-09-22T22:33:11.683Z

Ouch!

biggestal99 · 2020-09-22T22:38:36.576Z

markdido:

So based on your logic, it would be be cool with you if states banned Planned Parenthood clinics?

That would against roe v wade.

There is no constitutional precedent regarding shooting ranges.

Bad analogy. Try again.

Allan

markdido · 2020-09-22T22:44:09.772Z

biggestal99:

markdido:

So based on your logic, it would be be cool with you if states banned Planned Parenthood clinics?

That would against roe v wade.

There is no constitutional precedent regarding shooting ranges.

Bad analogy. Try again.

Allan

Roe v Wade doesn’t regulate abortion mills
Try again.