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I typically don’t play in absolutes so we are talking each other’s language here.

If 100 million people did not have ID I would hope we would agree that is sufficiently large that imposing voter IF would be suppressive of the vote. Would you agree?

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Texas.

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When I go to the pharmacy, I am always asked for a photo ID. They want to make sure that they give the right drug to the right person. And WR is right- it is illegal if they do not ask for a photo ID.

Requiring photo IDs does not suppress anyone. If one cannot drive, or does not drive, they can just as easily order one off a tag agency site (or, at least, begin to apply for one), and then take the bus to go take the photo and pick it up. It’s a very simple process. One visit.

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They may not even care enough to vote.

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OK. So your point is practically everyone functioning in society already has an ID, right? That is the point you are trying to make.

Aren’t you interested in how many people lack ID? It would seem that would be central evidence to support your premise.

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To function, one must have a driver’s license, a driving permit, or a state ID.

Because you would have to leave your house in order to function.

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Yes. I mean, you need an ID to drive, right? So basically, any time you want to leave your house on your own- whether that be to mail a bill, get something to eat, get groceries, etc.

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Is voter fraud a problem?

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This is why voting should be made harder and not easier. We want people who are motivated to vote. It’s too easy as it is for most people.

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Aren’t you interested in how many people lack ID? It would seem that would be central evidence to support your premise.

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Yes. It is.

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Do you have evidence supporting that it is an actual problem?

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Only about 10% lack ID. There is a reason for that- they are either too incapacitated, or they just don’t care enough to register. They don’t know or they don’t care.

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Yes I do. https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud

Simply click on a state and it will bring up all the criminal convictions of voter fraud in that state in the past four years or so.

The majority of voter fraud is committed with absentee ballots without the actual person whose name is on the ballot, knowing.

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Voter ID fraud is not a big enough issue in this country to be concerned about.

Voting is a right, established in several amendments to the Constitution.

It is up to the states to establish the requirements for voting in that state. If the state is going to require an ID, then the state has to provide the ID. Texas currently charges a $1 “admin fee”, but that does not include the cost of the ID to get the ID. Birth certificates can cost more. And if there is a mistake on the ID to get an ID, there is a problem.

So who is voter ID really a problem for? Not immigrants - they had to provide the documents to come in. And most of them come from countries that have national ID requirements (we don’t). Probably not many whites.

It seems to be the biggest problem in older black folks, a remnant of institutional racism. Nobody cared about the accuracy of their documents back in the day.

Individual voter ID fraud is not the election fraud we need to be concerned about.

Having said that, identity theft is a problem in this country and is likely to translate over eventually. If they can do it at a bank, they can do it at a poll.

If you want a higher voter turn out, it needs to be put on line. The way we do this now is the same way we did it 100 years ago. It’s absurd.

And apathy needs to be addressed. Voter ID laws are not suppressing the vote, apathy is. We need a return to civics education in schools.

Having said all that, if I have to jump through the hoops I have to in order to exercise my 2nd Amendment rights, why should I be sympathetic to a much lesser burden for 14th Amendment rights?

The big answer is we need to return to the Constitution. If a state wants to require a permit to exercise either right, then the state needs to provide the permit at no charge and no inconvenience. Which of course is simply not possible in the latter case.

The obvious solution is to abolish the requirement in both cases and accept that there will be some “fraud”.

Question: All states have a minimum age requirement for voting. How are voters proving they meet that requirement without documentation?

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Yes, but you have to prove that you’re a citizen. The U.S. Constitution only applies to citizens.

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Maybe 100 million do not. It really doesn’t matter to me. Those who do not will not be legitimate voters anyway. Maybe it’s only 1 million. Maybe it’s only 1000. If you don’t have an ID, I have no problem with your vote being “suppressed”. In fact, it should be suppressed.

My point is, if you are a legitimate voter, you already have an ID, and there should be no problem with showing it to vote.

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And when your ID expires?

I appreciate you being honest about the desire to suppress votes.

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I think they’re laughing at you

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Renew it.

Everyone does.

You do.

:roll_eyes:

I want legitimate voters to show they are legitimate. That’s not a desire to suppress votes. (Or at least legitimate ones.) Just like I don’t have a desire to suppress liquor sales, yet I agree with the requirement to show ID for that. Or for boarding an airplane. Or many of the other reasons we show ID routinely in this society.

“Desire to suppress votes…” What a disingenuous way to characterize my position. :roll_eyes: