If you are reduced to thinking an example of God’s intervention is to prevent you from tripping (or falling) we are not even close to being on the same train of thought.
Obviously I used an extreme for a reason. Extrapolate from there and you can explain “God’s interventions” as just humans and nature taking their course, right?
Once again, you are making the assumption that God did NOT intervene in some way with the parents of a child with leukemia.
You were seeking the wrong belief.
I was never “seeking” a belief
But if you disagree with this representation then please elaborate
No, it’s not.
It’s the basis of some disordered faith in a fabricated puppeteer.
Christianity is about the salvation of each and every soul.
Through what, how does a soul become saved?
OK, then you are rejecting a fallacious belief. It’s a strawman.
Religion is a strawman
But lets stay in the religious realm, how does a soul become saved in the Christian dogma?
If I thought your questioning were sincere, I’d spend the time on it.
But …
… it’s clear your mind is already predisposed to rejecting any explanation. I see no point in entertaining your questions further.
I paused before typing that because I feared it would get this reaction and I understand.
But I was being honest in my question, just because I do not believe in Christianity as I once did I do find the arguments within faiths to be engaging…an old habit I suppose
I grew up Adventist
Sure, sure. It just is indistinguishable from nature.
The Parable of the Burning House
Let us suppose the following case, Sâriputra. In a certain village, town, borough, province, kingdom, or capital, there was a certain housekeeper, old, aged, decrepit, very advanced in years, rich, wealthy, opulent; he had a great house, high, spacious, built a long time ago and old, inhabited by some two, three, four, or five hundred living beings. The house had but one door, and a thatch; its terraces were tottering, the bases of its pillars rotten, the coverings and plaster of the walls loose. On a sudden the whole house was from every side put in conflagration by a mass of fire. Let us suppose that the man had many little boys, say five, or ten, or even twenty, and that he himself had come out of the house.
Now, Sâriputra, that man, on seeing the house from every side wrapt in a blaze by a great mass of fire, got afraid, frightened, anxious in his mind, and made the following reflection: I myself am able to come out from the burning house through the door, quickly and safely, without being touched or scorched by that great mass of fire; but my children, those young boys, are staying in the burning house, playing, amusing, and diverting themselves with all sorts of sports. They do not perceive, nor know, nor understand, nor mind that the house is on fire, and do not get afraid. Though scorched by that great mass of fire, and affected with such a mass of pain, they do not mind the pain, nor do they conceive the idea of escaping.
The man, Sâriputra, is strong, has powerful arms, and (so) he makes this reflection: I am strong, and have powerful arms; why, let me gather all my little boys and take them to my breast to effect their escape from the house. A second reflection then presented itself to his mind: This house has but one opening; the door is shut; and those boys, fickle, unsteady, and childlike as they are, will, it is to be feared, run hither and thither, and come to grief and disaster in this mass of fire. Therefore I will warn them. So resolved, he calls to the boys: Come, my children; the house is burning with a mass of fire; come, lest ye be burnt in that mass of fire, and come to grief and disaster. But the ignorant boys do not heed the words of him who is their well-wisher; they are not afraid, not alarmed, and feel no misgiving; they do not care, nor fly, nor even know nor understand the purport of the word ‘burning;’ on the contrary, they run hither and thither, walk about, and repeatedly look at their father; all, because they are so ignorant.
Then the man is going to reflect thus: The house is burning, is blazing by a mass of fire. It is to be feared that myself as well as my children will come to grief and disaster. Let me therefore by some skilful means get the boys out of the house. The man knows the disposition of the boys, and has a clear perception of their inclinations. Now these boys happen to have many and manifold toys to play with, pretty, nice, pleasant, dear, amusing, and precious. The man, knowing the disposition of the boys, says to them: My children, your toys, which are so pretty, precious, and admirable, which you are so loth to miss, which are so various and multifarious, (such as) bullock-carts, goat-carts, deer-carts, which are so pretty, nice, dear, and precious to you, have all been put by me outside the house-door for you to play with. Come, run out, leave the house; to each of you I shall give what he wants. Come soon; come out for the sake of these toys. And the boys, on hearing the names mentioned of such playthings as they like and desire, so agreeable to their taste, so pretty, dear, and delightful, quickly rush out from the burning house, with eager effort and great alacrity, one having no time to wait for the other, and pushing each other on with the cry of ‘Who shall arrive first, the very first?’
The man, seeing that his children have safely and happily escaped, and knowing that they are free from danger, goes and sits down in the open air on the square of the village, his heart filled with joy and delight, released from trouble and hindrance, quite at ease. The boys go up to the place where their father is sitting, and say: ‘Father, give us those toys to play with, those bullock-carts, goat-carts, and deer-carts.’ Then, Sâriputra, the man gives to his sons, who run swift as the wind, bullock-carts only, made of seven precious substances, provided with benches, hung with a multitude of small bells, lofty, adorned with rare and wonderful jewels, embellished with jewel wreaths, decorated with garlands of flowers, carpeted with cotton mattresses and woollen coverlets, covered with white cloth and silk, having on both sides rosy cushions, yoked with white, very fair and fleet bullocks, led by a multitude of men. To each of his children he gives several bullockcarts of one appearance and one kind, provided with flags, and swift as the wind. That man does so, Sâriputra, because being rich, wealthy, and in possession of many treasures and granaries, he rightly thinks: Why should I give these boys inferior carts, all these boys being my own children, dear and precious? I have got such great vehicles, and ought to treat all the boys equally and without partiality. As I own many treasures and granaries, I could give such great vehicles to all beings, how much more then to my own children. Meanwhile the boys are mounting the vehicles with feelings of astonishment and wonder. Now, Sâriputra, what is thy opinion? Has that man made himself guilty of a falsehood by first holding out to his children the prospect of three vehicles and afterwards giving to each of them the greatest vehicles only, the most magnificent vehicles?". from Chapter 3 Lotus Sutra
I wouldn’t say I lost my faith. It just looks different these days.
The same here. My family was never particularly religious, but we would go to Church a few times a year, I had a childrens bible with nice pictures. Looking back, it was mostly a social aspect for them.
As I grew older, I learned more and more about the sciences, as well as learning about religions around the world. I took a serious read of the Bible, and could not mesh the stories from the BIble with what I knew of reality. Pretty soon after I discarded my faith. This would have been around 8th grade.
There was no real strong catalyst, it was simply learning about the world around me, and logical arguments.
One of the reasons we are so far apart is that what you see as an “intervention” I see more as support. Assistance where the left hand doesn’t know what the right hand is doing. What I recognize a helping hand, you would dismiss as coincidence, then demand to know why others aren’t blessed with similar coincidences. Whereas I understood and related to Smyrna’s response this morning, you demanded to know why leukemia victims are ignored. You believe unless they are cured they are ignored.
I prefer the word ‘redeemed’ over ‘saved’. Redemption begins in this life and extends into eternity. Follow Christ and live his teachings–his way, his truth, his life. Don’t let past miracles distract you from your present life.
Can you tell me which beatitude(s) you no longer trust or believe?
In what way(s)?
What is it about science (study of the physical realm) that caused you to dismiss philosophy? Would anyone ever say, “Astronomy did not mesh properly with oceanography, so I gave one up”?
