Life without the Fall

Could you be a bit more forthcoming, please?

Are you saying that if mankind didn’t know the difference between good and evil, or of good and evil period, they would not have built cities, built a tower up to the sky - lived in peace and love and happiness?

If so, why specifically?

Good question. What do you think, Meri?

Sometimes hard to tell. ; )

So, what do you think about the question?

Let’s change the parameters of the question.

Adam and Eve eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

God is ticked off, but decides to give them a second chance and does not banish them, nor curse them or the ground, etc. etc.

Now that they have knowledge of good and evil, and a loving God who gives them a second chance, but says - now that evil is I hope you won’t choose it, and I’ll remove Satan from your midst - what would life be like?

Yes…and maybe that should reflect how we treat them.

Have you ever watched those videos on YouTube of animals of one species helping out animals of another?

I suppose videos of animals eating other animals would far out weigh the ones at the link above, but it still goes to show animals can show compassion, can show love and despair - definitely know fear and suffering…


Books of Enoch, particularly 2 Enoch. These books contain Jewish tradition, yet are outside of mainstream Judaism. They were not accepted by the Pharisees. They were apparently written around the time Jesus was born, and in Apocalyptic style (world will end with that present generation) the style in which the books of Daniel and Revelation were written.

Enoch places Eden in the Third Heaven. I’ve only read a summary of this a long time ago, so fair warning I may not be recalling everything correctly. The gist of the story is that some of the inhabitants of heaven withdrew to a place in heaven that was not that close to God. They wanted to be like God and show that they, even if they knew evil, could overcome it. Of course, God got wind of their experiment, said, Fine, but you are not doing this in heaven. So, He provided them a place (Earth) where they could carry out their plans without infecting or contaminating heaven. (Outside the Jewish community some Christians who have read Enoch wonder if this can be the one-third of heavenly beings swept from heaven that is referenced in Revelation.)

In any case, these being agreed to leave heaven and come to earth, even though that meant also accepting an existence that meant working the earth to provide for themselves, and childbirth would not be pleasant.

What I see in both stories is that what began without God’s permission, did gain His permission–but that their experiment was not going to be in Eden (the name means delight) or heaven. Nor could they live forever in this existence. They would eventually have to suffer death and judgment–either returning fully to God or eternal separation.

Imagine a tribe of prehistoric atheists around the campfire one night. The topic they are discussing is the origin of evil. Since evil is under discussion, they recognize what evil is–and that men are capable of being evil. From whence did it come? How did it develop? What is to be done about it when arises in their midst?

Who knows. We didnt even know the earth revolved around the sun until not very long ago.

That’s a different topic for a different thread!

I’d like to know how you think life would have developed between humans and God if God had given the humans a second chance, and had not cast them out of Eden.

Humans now know the difference between good and evil, and they have a loving God to show them the way. A God that to me, logically, would appear to everyone on the planet, have no “chosen people” except all people, and who would encourage mankind to excel and be the best they could be.

And everyone would choose “good” over “evil” because it just makes sense to do so…and they’d have a peace-loving God as their example. :grinning:

And this is why I cannot be of help. You made the conclusion that it took sin for Adam and Eve to know good and evil. I do not get that from the story. Good and evil were in the center of the garden, what was missing was their wish to use good for an evil purpose. They were content with good and left evil alone…until…they were tempted to at least try it out. I am also of the opinion that the two characters represent the entire tribe of humanity of that day–that doing something evil originated with the women (obviously the leaders) and the men followed.

Anyway, you are of the opinion that two naive, unknowing people made a very innocent mistake and were harshly punished; that given a second chance things would have turned out differently.

This is a good explanation of where you’re coming from.

Anyone else want to chime in - not on what Meri has shared but on their views of what life would be like if God had given Adam and Eve a second chance?

How do you use “good” for an “evil” purpose? That makes no sense.

My response was serious and was what I think. If you want me to construct a fable for you I can.

The Jewish religion is worth studying closely. They understand stories. They understand if snakes don’t talk today, then they did not talk in yesteryear. Yet they symbolize something and in ancient times it might be sexual desire, or also deception. Or both. In many ways, the Fall can be read as a coming of age story, covering the coming of age both mankind, and the individual leaving childhood and entering adolescence.

This, as are other Biblical stories, is about people and how people relate to what is happening around them. The story is about us, not about God. Making it about God makes it about no one.

Your question would be better phrased by asking us to picture life without deception. The deception of others, enters in of course, but what about if we did not deceive ourselves about right and wrong? What would life on earth be like then?

Its Genesis. It’s about gods creation and it sets up the entire basis for why Jesus was given to humanity.

Well - what do YOU think life would have been like then?

YOU - not Jewish stories of the past.

What do YOU think life would have been like then?

Please do so.

Let’s stipulate that the God of the BIble exists. For the sake of the discussion in this particular thread, let’s stipulate that the God of the Bible exists.

Let’s stipulate that Adam and Eve exist, that they ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and that the God of the Bible did not banish them but gave them a second chance.

Let’s stipulate that Adam and Eve still live in paradise, that God is a kind and generous, loving God, rather than a psycho.

What would life on earth have been like if that is the case?

GIven all those stipulations, please construct your fable.

Ok, will take a nap first then review some text from my bible then I definitely will. First need to consider what life was like before the fall.

No, I will stay with the story. We see that people deceived themselves, and then went on to try to deceive God…knowledge…goodness–whatever you wish to call it. They tried to hide who they were, what they did.

To see our story change we first must:

  • Stop deceiving ourselves
  • Stop deceiving others
  • When we do something wrong, we don’t hide it

Can we imagine a world without:

  • Courts
  • Fraud
  • Schemes
  • Deceptions

Can we imagine ending each day deeply embarrassed? :slight_smile: